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I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12

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Re: I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12

#251

Post by azernik »

facepalm wrote: post #116
azernik wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, you know, the multitude of peer-reviewed studies on the effects of this conditioning (causation is harder to measure, of course).

Links?

Less likely to interrupt others: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A%3A1018802521676#p...

Less likely to negotiate for higher pay (HBR summary of several studies, rather than studies themselves): https://hbr.org/2003/10/nice-girls-dont-ask/

And an old, but seminal, look at the ways this is reflected in the way women express themselves: http://web.stanford.edu/class/linguist156/Lakoff_1973.pdf

Re: I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12

#252

Post by facepalm »

azernik wrote: post #251
facepalm wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Links?

Less likely to interrupt others: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A%3A1018802521676#p... Less likely to negotiate for higher pay (HBR summary of several studies, rather than studies themselves): https://hbr.org/2003/10/nice-girls-dont-ask/ And an old, but seminal, look at the ways this is reflected in the way women express themselves: http://web.stanford.edu/class/linguist156/Lakoff_1973.pdf

The claim in question was "societal pressure placed on women to be accommodating and not be rude and how this can be manipulated to constrain female agency". It seems to me the links you provide are only marginally related. The first is also paywalled, and the last does seem to be an opinion piece. Or does it include some actual data later on (I only looked at the first quarter or so, as it is rather long)? It proposes some experiments, but then goes on with "it is safe to expect result x" - so why even bother proposing experiments?

One example they provide is

(a) "Oh dear, you've put the peanut butter in the refrigerator again." vs (b) "Shit, you've put the peanut butter in the refrigerator again."

And we are meant to decide which one was said by a woman. Then it goes on "It is safe to predict that people would classify the first sentence as part of 'women's language', the second as 'men's language'"

Really??? Because women don't say shit (even in 1973)? And men don't say "oh dear"? If that is seminal and what the modern opinion is based on, excuse me for not being impressed.

Edit: just read more of the second link about negotiations. What I see is them just making another unsubstantiated claim ("it's because of socialisation"). But they asked people over the internet when they last negotiated. Have they taken into account that many women perhaps don't even have a job where they get a salary (ie they are house wives)? Or maybe they are more likely to take on jobs that are unionized (teachers, for example), so that the salary is fixed anyway? And so on. Surely there are reasons - maybe it even is socialization, but there is nothing in the articles to substantiate that claim. It is just the author's bias.

Re: I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12

#253

Post by facepalm »

rosser wrote: post #248
facepalm wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, a rude man is typically described as rude or as being an asshole. And women can be tough, assertive and confident, too.

While true, it ignores the very pertinent fact that the behaviors that are called rude in women are often called something entirely different when they're done by men. Women behaving assertively tends to get them called bitches, and ball-busters, and other, far less printable things.

That's just a claim you make. And I doubt people like assertive men so much. In what context, anyway? So if you have an assertive male boss, you go "thank god I don't have to make decisions myself, he is so great", if you have an assertive female boss you go "what a bitch"? Seems very unlikely to me - more likely, your opinion is based on lots of one-sided anecdotes by women who only noticed themselves. (Meaning they noticed a backlash against their assertiveness and assumed it must be a woman problem, never noticing any backlash against men because of confirmation bias).

Re: I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12

#255

Post by randyrand »

noobermin wrote: post #247
randyrand wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was he talking about all women, or just the median woman?

This line of thinking could be used to justify all sorts of stereotypes. Not saying that's good or bad,but one could talk about the median woman, black, white, asian...etc.

Generalization is important. It helps us manage complexity.

When making generalizations, or stereotyping, it is definitely a good thing to talk about the median person.

For instance, Bernie Sanders gets a lot of his appeal by appealing to the generalized, stereotyped american public. Its an incredibly important skill to be able to make those generalizations in order to get appeal. When talking about "Wall Street" his message is not "this is a multifaceted topic". Instead Wall Street is stereotyped to simplify his arguments.

Re: I’ve Had a Cyberstalker Since I Was 12

#256

Post by angmarsbane »

mpweiher wrote: post #215
feintruled wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, in moderation making excuses for others (or rather, putting a positive spin on their actions) can lead for an easier and more stress free life. I have been amazed at times when behaviour from others I have considered unremarkable has been interpreted in any entirely different way by someone else. For example, a boss I considered to be trying his best is considered by others as an upper management ass-kisse…

> .. easier and more stress free life This. So much this. Where a lot of posters here see "downtrodden victim of societal pressures", I see people who like to take the easier route. Speaking up for yourself is hard . For everyone. It's pretty much always easier to let it slide, not rock the boat, appease, downplay etc.

Making excuses can be a way to try and protect yourself. If you're afraid someone will escalate if you say no then you will try to tolerate or say yes as much as you can and hope that is a slower route to the escalation.
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