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Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#251

Post by scholia »

Silhouette wrote: post #110
scholia wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a product like Windows 7 to come with essential support for a significant period of time, perhaps based on the expected working lifetime of devices where the software is normally installed. Under Microsoft's software lifecycle policy, operating systems are normally supported for 10 years. So, for example, we already know that support for Windows 7 ends in 2020, unless it's…

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Microsoft's current support periods are somehow bad. On the contrary, I think they have historically been by far the best in the industry, and that this has been a strong argument in favour of building serious software on Windows. All I'm saying is that a significant period of support -- longer than the 3 years the posts I was replying to seemed to be suggesting -- is a reasonab…

> The position that the software industry wants to keep changing things so everyone else should be forced to keep up whether or not it's actually in their interests is not something I can support.

Oddly enough, Microsoft already tried that. They ended up with people running 14-year-old code (which cost them money both short term and long term) and a major malware problem.

Check out conficker devastating businesses and costing people a fortune ... almost wholly because they didn't install the patch for it. And these idiots are running supposedly-competent businesses or government departments.

The business branches offer more control over taking updates, but this is a consumer operating system.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#252

Post by Silhouette »

scholia wrote: post #240
Silhouette wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your opening para. Either way, I don't think defective software has anything to do with it. That seems where we disagree. With other kinds of product I buy, at least in my country, there are consumer protection laws about the being of sufficient quality and fit for their intended purpose. If a product doesn't live up to those standards, I am entitled by law to have the situation put right or compen…

> My point is that providing a reasonable degree of support is not really optional for them and they are not really being generous in providing it. Compared to who? They're selling Home OSes for roughly $10 to $40 (sometimes free with Bing) and even a trivial support incident costs 2x to 3x revenue. Further, most people have never actually bought anything from Microsoft. They "buy" it from the PC manufacturer, who is…

They're selling Home OSes for roughly $10 to $40 (sometimes free with Bing) and even a trivial support incident costs 2x to 3x revenue.

That's their problem, just as it is the chair maker's problem if he sells defective products on tight margins and then has to repair them at an overall loss when someone sits on them and they break. They're perfectly entitled to sell their software for more, if people are willing to pay more for it, but whatever the price, the buyer is entitled to have the working software they reasonably expected to receive in return for their money.

Further, most people have never actually bought anything from Microsoft. They "buy" it from the PC manufacturer, who is actually responsible for supporting their product.

That is basically true, though as soon as Microsoft start arguing anything about EULAs being binding agreements they're probably going to be on the hook as well. Third party rights and liabilities are an interesting area of the law, particularly when it comes to software.

But yes, if you buy a PC then the shop that sold it is primarily responsible, if you get a phone with your plan then the shop/network that provided it is primarily responsible, etc.

"Windows 10 laptop reboot loop" doesn't apply as it came after the launch

OK, but you were arguing that "most people seem to be very happy" with Windows 10. I suspect those people were not.

"Windows 10 WiFi Sense security" just shows a lot of ignorance

That is unfortunately true. However, it also shows quite a few people dismissing a genuine security concern because as long as everyone who ever uses a network fully understands the implications of the feature and makes no mistakes in configuring it (i.e., they leave the entire feature turned off), no harm should be done.

Of course, the moment a single person in your company accidentally hits share instead of don't share, your sysadmins can look forward to a fun day changing all the credentials and notifying everyone of the new arrangements, and your executives can look forward to explaining the resulting regulatory investigation and fines for not security data properly to the shareholders.

"Windows 10 search" doesn't show anything very much.

That's funny. When I googled it before writing that post, it found a rather lengthy list of articles and blog posts commenting on how poorly the new search feature actually works, mentioning several different points about the order results are shown in, not searching parts of the local network that were searched in previous Windows versions, and generally more work being required to find useful things that search found before. Plus there's the less favourable perception of Bing search results, and the privacy concerns, of course.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#253

Post by datainplace »

anonbanker wrote: post #226
datainplace wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I finally saw the bill. From the moment she started downloading Windows 10 to the moment I told her to shut the internet off, she used 20 gigs. That's ridiculous. And there is only one computer in the house. No other devices use internet.

So, are you going to continue supporting Microsoft by installing Windows 7, or are you going to put your mom on an easy linux distro like ElementaryOS [0] or Kubuntu? [1] 0. http://elementary.io 1. http://www.kubuntu.org/

I'd like to switch but she uses Quicken and a few things that won't switch over.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#254

Post by jevgeni »

inversionOf wrote: post #241
jevgeni wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's refrain from assuming anything about anyone's sincerity. As far as I can tell, most of the Windows 10 scaremongering on HN is nothing but FUD. The key logger argument is a case in point: http://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-... Yet, you unquestioningly repeat it. Local system search while sharing some basic diagnostics data with Microsoft does not share the search queries. WiFi passwords…

"Yet, you unquestioningly repeat it." Why are you quoting an ancient article (one that, humorously, incorrectly claims that the typing data telematics was just some temporary preview release inclusion, when actually it made it to production), when the actual privacy policy of Windows 10, when you install it, tells you that it will monitor and send "typing data" to Microsoft? Microsoft left this very nebulous, but ult…

Yes, I was wrong about typing data. They collect it: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/speech-inking-...

Although it is possible to turn it off.

I think it would do them good to be more clear on how exactly they use and collect that data.

In fact I think this page should be read by everyone here: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-10/windows-privac...

I didn't find anything huge about application data, I'm sorry. Worst case scenario: your computer crashes and an error report contains a memory snapshot with some of your data. Like any other mainstream operating system today.

This discussion shouldn't defer evidence to either mine or your authority or personality. It doesn't matter if I was aggressive or not. In fact, my defence of Microsoft is relative. In my opinion, it is stupid to feel offended about Microsoft's privacy practices, while supporting an even more invasive behaviour by Google. Among those two it is Google, whose business model of selling targeted ads actually depends on collecting personal data from their users. Yet it seems, they are above any scrutiny.

That's what I've been trying to say. I didn't say anything about any anti-Google ads, because I have no idea what those are.

Finally, seeing people selectively whine about privacy on a social network, even a rudimentary one, like HN, seems absurd.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#255

Post by scholia »

Silhouette wrote: post #252
scholia wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point is that providing a reasonable degree of support is not really optional for them and they are not really being generous in providing it. Compared to who? They're selling Home OSes for roughly $10 to $40 (sometimes free with Bing) and even a trivial support incident costs 2x to 3x revenue. Further, most people have never actually bought anything from Microsoft. They "buy" it from the PC manufacturer, who is…

They're selling Home OSes for roughly $10 to $40 (sometimes free with Bing) and even a trivial support incident costs 2x to 3x revenue. That's their problem, just as it is the chair maker's problem if he sells defective products on tight margins and then has to repair them at an overall loss when someone sits on them and they break. They're perfectly entitled to sell their software for more, if people are willing to…

> OK, but you were arguing that "most people seem to be very happy" with Windows 10. I suspect those people were not.

Most people are happy, as far as I can tell. Clearly some are not, but if 50 million people were unhappy they'd be making a lot more noise....

>Of course, the moment a single person in your company accidentally hits share instead of don't share, your sysadmins can look forward to a fun day changing all the credentials and notifying everyone of the new arrangements, and your executives can look forward to explaining the resulting regulatory investigation and fines for not security data properly to the shareholders.

I'm assuming companies are run by people who are not complete idiots. There's a simple way to make sure your corporate (or other) network is never shared, and it's covered at in the FAQ.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/wi-fi-sense-fa...

I wasn't kidding when I said the coverage "showed a lot of ignorance". I was too polite to mention the incompetence.

> blog posts commenting on how poorly the new search feature actually works, mentioning several different points

Works fine here, for what I use it for....

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#256

Post by anonbanker »

datainplace wrote: post #253
anonbanker wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, are you going to continue supporting Microsoft by installing Windows 7, or are you going to put your mom on an easy linux distro like ElementaryOS [0] or Kubuntu? [1] 0. http://elementary.io 1. http://www.kubuntu.org/

I'd like to switch but she uses Quicken and a few things that won't switch over.

So yes, you are continuing to support Microsoft.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#257

Post by Silhouette »

scholia wrote: post #255
Silhouette wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're selling Home OSes for roughly $10 to $40 (sometimes free with Bing) and even a trivial support incident costs 2x to 3x revenue. That's their problem, just as it is the chair maker's problem if he sells defective products on tight margins and then has to repair them at an overall loss when someone sits on them and they break. They're perfectly entitled to sell their software for more, if people are willing to…

> OK, but you were arguing that "most people seem to be very happy" with Windows 10. I suspect those people were not. Most people are happy, as far as I can tell. Clearly some are not, but if 50 million people were unhappy they'd be making a lot more noise.... >Of course, the moment a single person in your company accidentally hits share instead of don't share, your sysadmins can look forward to a fun day changing al…

Well, I'm happy for you that Windows 10 seems to meet your needs and apparently doesn't cause you any problems. But I stand by my original position that Microsoft may have misjudged the business market if their strategy is to go consumer first and aim to fix any business concerns later. (Please also remember that I'm not saying they necessarily have misjudged, I'm just saying it's a risk if that's their strategy.)

Regardless of your opinion or mine, the corporate sysadmins and decision-makers evaluating a possible move to Windows 10 aren't going to be forming their opinions based on the kinds of reviews you linked to before, and they're going to be well aware of the kinds of issues raised by the less favourable coverage. What really matters isn't whether you can convince me that, say, changing a corporate WiFi SSID used by hundreds or thousands of people is no big deal, it is whether Microsoft can convince the sysadmins and the team running the help desk. And based on the reactions I've seen so far from people who are in those kinds of positions, Windows 10 certainly isn't making a great first impression, so I do think Microsoft has left themselves a bit of a mountain to climb.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#258

Post by chmaynard »

jshelly wrote: post #42
fumar wrote: post #39

I'm not savvy enough to discern whether OSX os iOS does this. Does anyone know if iDevices also ping back to Apple?

Little snitch indicates OSX does, but I'm not savvy enough to discern in what capacity or the content

As I understand it, Little Snitch is a process-level network firewall that uses a kernel extension to monitor and report all outgoing traffic. I have used it for about a week on a Mac running OS X 10.11, and I'm seeing lots of undocumented traffic from apps and daemons signed by Apple. By undocumented, I mean that the built-in docs in Little Snitch can't explain what the sender is doing.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#259

Post by Silhouette »

scholia wrote: post #251
Silhouette wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Microsoft's current support periods are somehow bad. On the contrary, I think they have historically been by far the best in the industry, and that this has been a strong argument in favour of building serious software on Windows. All I'm saying is that a significant period of support -- longer than the 3 years the posts I was replying to seemed to be suggesting -- is a reasonab…

> The position that the software industry wants to keep changing things so everyone else should be forced to keep up whether or not it's actually in their interests is not something I can support. Oddly enough, Microsoft already tried that. They ended up with people running 14-year-old code (which cost them money both short term and long term) and a major malware problem. Check out conficker devastating businesses an…

Again, this is conflating security patches with more general updates.

As a personal anecdote, the only serious malware that has ever hit any system I run, as far as I'm aware, was a zero day exploit. The system was fully patched when it was hit. In contrast, the amount of productive time I have spent over the past few years recovering from problems caused by non-security-related software updates that I didn't particularly want but couldn't avoid if I wanted to keep the security patches is probably measured in weeks by now.

I'm all for keeping systems secure, but when updates start to take priority over keeping systems useful, you have a problem. Most security patches are fairly low risk and have few if any unrelated side effects anyway, but that is certainly not the case with modern software updates more generally. Just look at the frustration of browser users with Mozilla constantly rearranging the UI or Google actively removing functionality from Chrome, or of course the number of users who never moved from Windows XP to Vista or from 7 to 8 because the changes weren't considered improvements.

In the brave new world of Windows 10, the average individual user will be stuck with all the updates, security or otherwise, whether they want them or not. There's really no excuse for that, even in a consumer-focussed OS. Install updates by default, so less technical users get what they probably want? Sure. Block even knowledgeable users from choosing whether to install specific updates? The only time that makes a difference is if Microsoft want to force an update that the user does not want.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#260

Post by irixusr »

calvin_ wrote: post #82
irixusr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In canada that's a big concern

Maybe in Ontario. It's uncapped out east.

I don't know about the rest-of-Canada.

I stayed in Ontario (Mississauga) last year for six mo. and I was on Rogers, capped at 80 Gb/month. My alternative was Bell. Same price. Same cap. Week-long activation date.

I was paying what I had been paying for in the US for unlimited data. There were uncapped plans available, but they're pricier. Considering the building was hooked up to fiber (at least Bell suggested it was), getting 80 Gb seemed a bit stingy.

The best way to illustrate how broken our system is to our American friends is to point out that, when I returned to the US, I was thankful to return to Comcast.

Which is like being thankful to getting reinfected with Ebola.

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