Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Fired

zachholman.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 410 posts

Re: Fired

#241

Post by paulhauggis »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #213
davidu wrote: post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

> people are fired all the time No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone. Now there are all kinds of downsides to that, and it's far from ideal especially for start-ups, but I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible…

"No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone."

It's basically a court case to fire someone, which makes it very easy for employees that should be fired to keep their jobs.

"The cop-out of "this isn't working out, you're fired" borders on infantile behavior on the level of "I don't wanna play with you anymore". Firing people can have a devastating impact on the lives of the people it happens to."

Sometimes it isn't working out and that person needs to be let go.

"Firing people should not be that easy, and in most civilized countries it isn't."

There is a reason why the US has the most innovation as well as the best place to start a new company and one of the reasons is because it doesn't require a court case to let someone (that isn't working out) go.

These kind of regulations prevent smaller companies from even starting and will create an environment with mostly large companies. It will eventually kill the startup scene that HN loves so much.

Re: Fired

#242

Post by whyaduck »

matwood wrote: post #208
jghn wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the one thing I really don't like about the whole fire fast mentality that is starting to pop up, particularly the extreme examples of "fire for any reason as soon as the person isn't a perfect fit, regardless of overall quality". I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance. Make sure I understand that I'm not pulling my weight. Make sure I understand that the company is m…

If more and more companies start going to the fire fast as soon as you're not a fit, then expect salary requests to start going up. Taking a new job is a risk, and a fire fast mentality adds to that risk that must be compensated with a salary premium.

A hiring bonus would be a better impedance match - both sides are taking a significant risk. A candidate quitting a job is a significant, generally irreversible, risky step, while handing a new hire a 5 figure sum on day one is similar.

Re: Fired

#243

Post by wilsynet »

According to Zach, Github doesn't have managers. So if there are no managers, then who fired him? Or can anyone just fire anyone else? Maybe Zach could just hire himself back.

Re: Fired

#244

Post by vhodges »

ethagnawl wrote: post #167
vhodges wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to what Europeans have, but as a Canadian I can. It's not all it's cracked up to be. In BC MSP (Medical Services Plan) is $54/Month for an individual and it's mandatory whether you're employed or not. The amount is probably different in other provinces as medical is a provincial concern (and indeed, coverage varies from province to province). Employers usually offer extended medical, covering things lik…

The MSP side of what you've described sounds to me like _all it's cracked up to be_. I live in the U.S. and recently enrolled my family of two in the cheapest healthcare plan available (high deductible, no dental, no vision) through the Freelancers Union - which I'm required to do as part of the Affordable Healthcare Act - and it's going to cost me USD $814 per month ... for the next 35 years. In today's dollars, tha…

Sure, my only point is it's not universal nor free (so many pundits in the US seem to think it is). Family of 2-4 is 104/month in BC.

Note, this does not include anything beyond medical, ie not ambulances, not vision, no private rooms, no dental, no physio and not prescriptions and in BC does NOT cover things like IVF (Ontario does cover up to 3 attempts).

Those are all extra (to the tune of 200-300/month for a family - usually paid by your employer - there are plans for solo/self employed http://www.coverme.com/ for instance).

Re: Fired

#245

Post by gaius »

engendered wrote: post #239
gaius wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, thats not even remotely true. Look at their mobile division.

Most organizational "lay offs" start by identifying the most expendable, the least valuable, the people with the worst performance reviews, etc. This is especially true in the technology industry. I'm not saying this as an objective "it is thus justified", but rather a simple reality that the same criteria by which some shops might say "you're not working out, so I'm sorry I'm canning you" is the same criteria that c…

Not at all. You get fired when you do something wrong. You get laid off when management does something wrong.

Re: Fired

#246

Post by chimeracoder »

nirvdrum wrote: post #72
NotOscarWilde wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seemed to me the post was tiptoeing around the reason of the dismissal, and the author even alludes to the story behind it with: > Seemingly everyone’s got stories of being stuck under shit managers, or dealing the fallout from things out of their control. I don't support "character smearing" or "attacking" in any way, but as a reader of the post, I would like to know more about the reasons for his firing, even in…

One of the reasons you usually don't hear about why people get fired is the employee is offered a severance package in exchange for signing a non-disparagement agreement. Usually that agreement cuts both ways, so you're happy to sign it. You get some money to help you decide what's next, while you and your employer exit on as best terms as reasonably possible. The only thing you need to give up is venting on the Inte…

> One of the reasons you usually don't hear about why people get fired is the employee is offered a severance package in exchange for signing a non-disparagement agreement.

Obligatory: I am not a lawyer, I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

Just FYI, nondisparagement agreements have fallen out of favor in recent years, as they're interpreted very narrowly by courts[0]. Even if your company presents you with one (which they may not), you can usually negotiate it out pretty easily.

Especially in industries or jobs in which reputation and "social capital" are highly valued, companies are tending to leave these out, because they're actually massive liabilities for both parties, and there are already enough restrictions around defamation, sharing of confidential information, etc., that it's usually not worth the risk.

I have no idea what happened in this case, but it's worth mentioning since you bring this up.

[0] As in, this blog post would almost certainly violate a standard nondisparagement agreement, even though it's relatively innocuous at first glance!

Re: Fired

#247

Post by baby »

Wow! I've been following your blog for a while and I would never have expected someone like you to get fired. It's good that you're speaking out. I have to admit I'm really curious about the reason you got fired but I guess it's none of my business. Looking forward to see what you will do of your following months, be it getting hired or drinking whiskey all day long while next to a typewriter. Please blog about it :)

Re: Fired

#248

Post by hoverkraft »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #213
davidu wrote: post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

> people are fired all the time No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone. Now there are all kinds of downsides to that, and it's far from ideal especially for start-ups, but I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible…

I have a lot of family in France, and based on what I've heard from them, the flip-side of those kinds of employment protections is that employers become much more reluctant to hire people (especially young people and people considered higher risk based on background, skills, etc.)

Possible that this attitude (along with many other factors) contributes to the far less developed startup cultures of many Western European countries.

Re: Fired

#249

Post by skwirl »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #213
davidu wrote: post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

> people are fired all the time No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone. Now there are all kinds of downsides to that, and it's far from ideal especially for start-ups, but I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible…

You're right, it is a very American way of doing business. But you haven't put forward any argument against it, other than basically saying that it makes you feel icky.

We have a very individualistic culture in America. It has its positives and negatives. But most of the people here (software developers in America) have greatly benefited from that culture - we have a tremendous amount of opportunity in a field we enjoy and do very well financially. So we have no reason to complain. Even when we are fired most of us will find another job quickly that is still several times the median Western wage.

I would say the results speak volumes as well. We are the center of the startup world and our big tech companies disproportionately dominate world markets.

But there's one thing that I imagine has to be universal, which makes me wonder how much industry experience you've had. I think almost all of us have had the experience of working with someone who is a drag on their team. A bad developer does not result in 0 productivity, but huge productivity losses for the team. Sometimes people do just not work out, although maybe in Europe instead of firing them you rubber room them.

Re: Fired

#250

Post by vhodges »

swalberg wrote: post #171
ethagnawl wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MSP side of what you've described sounds to me like _all it's cracked up to be_. I live in the U.S. and recently enrolled my family of two in the cheapest healthcare plan available (high deductible, no dental, no vision) through the Freelancers Union - which I'm required to do as part of the Affordable Healthcare Act - and it's going to cost me USD $814 per month ... for the next 35 years. In today's dollars, tha…

This is on top of a 46% marginal income tax rate and 12% sales tax. I don't know what the BC plan is like, but in Manitoba if I didn't have any coverage through my employer I'd be paying for almost everything except visiting a doctor or ER. And you're still stuck in a line to see specialists. It's not unheard of to schedule an appointment with a specialist a year out.

Coverage/participation is mandatory - they send collections after you if you stop paying in BC
Post reply on HN