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FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

9to5mac.com

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Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#241

Post by OutOfHere »

jacquesm wrote: post #212
upofadown wrote: post #180

Putting on my user hat... "OK. Signal has forward secrecy. So messages are gone after I receive them. Great!" Oh, you didn't turn on disappearing messages? Oh, right, then forensic tools like Cellebrite can get them. You have to turn on disappearing messages. The default is off. Oh, you did turn on disappearing messages? We send the messages in notifications. So the OS can keep them. Turns out Apple was doing that. T…

People keep pushing signal because it is supposedly secure. But it runs on platforms that are so complex with so much eco system garbage that there is no way know even within a low percentage of confidence if you've done everything required to ensure you are communicating just with the person you think you are. There could be listeners at just about every layer and that is still without looking at the meta-data angle…

There is nothing secure about sending encrypted content to notifications. If it were secure, it would only notify that there is a message, with no details included.

Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#242

Post by ttkari »

This is the same issue that got a local drug organization busted some time ago - their entire α-PVP cooking operation was busted after one of the gang members was caught during a sale, his iphone was confiscated and the entire org was right there in the notification history.

I guess that's what you deserve if you trust apple with your operational security.

Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#243

Post by 0xR1CK »

svpk wrote: post #238
AlBugdy wrote: post #234

So Signal is sending the notifications through Apple's ecosystem somehow, presumably to save battery life by not having a persistent connection to Signal's servers? That's what I think happens on Android, too. When I had Lineage years ago, I had a persistent connection to Signal as the notifications didn't come through Google. Unfortunately there was a persistent notification for the persistent connection with no way…

In my recollection, which may be imperfect: 1. On android if Google Play isn't available (or you install the no Google apk version) it'll use a websocket for notifications. Apple doesn't allow a persistent connection except through their own notification framework. 2. In either case Signal doesn't send message contents through the notification framework (not even encrypted). Once Signal receives a notification the ap…

" if the ___ has your unlocked phone they can read your signal messages. "

It's worth noting you can add an additional security check pin/bio/pass to signal that is different from your phone unlock.

The protester had also uninstalled signal from phone (even with access to the phone, they would not have access to signal, if they had reinstalled signal, and some how got the security pin or passphrase, they wouldn't be able to load the prior messages, without either, no messages at all).

Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#244

Post by dingaling »

jacquesm wrote: post #212
upofadown wrote: post #180

Putting on my user hat... "OK. Signal has forward secrecy. So messages are gone after I receive them. Great!" Oh, you didn't turn on disappearing messages? Oh, right, then forensic tools like Cellebrite can get them. You have to turn on disappearing messages. The default is off. Oh, you did turn on disappearing messages? We send the messages in notifications. So the OS can keep them. Turns out Apple was doing that. T…

People keep pushing signal because it is supposedly secure. But it runs on platforms that are so complex with so much eco system garbage that there is no way know even within a low percentage of confidence if you've done everything required to ensure you are communicating just with the person you think you are. There could be listeners at just about every layer and that is still without looking at the meta-data angle…

I've raised concerns about the Signal project whitewashing risks such as keyboard apps or the OS itself, and the usual response is that it's my fault for using an untrustworthy OS and outside Signal's scope.

At some point there need to be a frank admission that ETE encrypted messaging apps are just the top layer of an opaque stack that could easily be operating against you.

They've made encryption so slick and routine that they've opened a whole new vector of attack through excessive user trust and laziness.

Encrypting a message used to be slow, laborious and cumbersome; which meant that there was a reticence to send messages that didn't need to be sent, and therefore to minimise disclosure. Nowadays everything is sent, under an umbrella of misplaced trust.

Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#245

Post by stvltvs »

DevX101 wrote: post #206
upofadown wrote: post #180

Putting on my user hat... "OK. Signal has forward secrecy. So messages are gone after I receive them. Great!" Oh, you didn't turn on disappearing messages? Oh, right, then forensic tools like Cellebrite can get them. You have to turn on disappearing messages. The default is off. Oh, you did turn on disappearing messages? We send the messages in notifications. So the OS can keep them. Turns out Apple was doing that. T…

The median user isn't going to change default settings, so your app is as secure as whatever the default it.

Even if I change the setting, my messages aren't truly secure against this unless all recipients do the same on all of their devices.

Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#246

Post by OutOfHere »

fn-mote wrote: post #219
benhurmarcel wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me what Whatsapp if you set up a 2FA PIN, which forces you to type it about every week to check if you forgot it. So annoying.

Sorry, I really cannot tell if this is sarcasm or not. One of the TOTP apps had a periodic test that you still knew the paraphrase. It started frequent and then backed off to like once a month. There’s definitely a benefit even if it’s annoying.

It depends on whether one has it stored in a password manager or not. If stored, there is no benfit. Giving users a choice would be better.

Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#247

Post by AJ007 »

microtonal wrote: post #237
upofadown wrote: post #180

Putting on my user hat... "OK. Signal has forward secrecy. So messages are gone after I receive them. Great!" Oh, you didn't turn on disappearing messages? Oh, right, then forensic tools like Cellebrite can get them. You have to turn on disappearing messages. The default is off. Oh, you did turn on disappearing messages? We send the messages in notifications. So the OS can keep them. Turns out Apple was doing that. T…

I think one of the main issues is that end-to-end message encryption is a sham as long as backups are not encrypted. I could have good device security, but if the person I'm talking to does not use ADP, iMessage and WhatsApp messages get backed up with only at-rest encryption (I think Signal opts out of standard iOS backups) and possibly the same for backups of the iPhone notification database (which the article sugg…

"end-to-end message encryption is a sham as long as" -- I agree with that but would add even more caveats. If someone can't list those caveats off the top of their head they shouldn't be pretending they aren't able to communicate securely.

Just look at Salt Typhoon, every single person should be way more paranoid than they are, including government & agency officials. The attach surface and potential damage - financial and reputation - will only get worse with AI automation and impersonation, and that's for people who are doing nothing interesting and are law abiding citizens.

Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#248

Post by jshier »

AlBugdy wrote: post #234

So Signal is sending the notifications through Apple's ecosystem somehow, presumably to save battery life by not having a persistent connection to Signal's servers? That's what I think happens on Android, too. When I had Lineage years ago, I had a persistent connection to Signal as the notifications didn't come through Google. Unfortunately there was a persistent notification for the persistent connection with no way…

There is no other way to send push notifications on iOS, you have to use APNS. When the app is active you can switch to your own local socket connection, but as soon as it goes into the background those connections are lost. Pushes can also start the app in the background if it hasn't been used in a while and has been evicted by the OS.

You can send push notifications with your own encryption on top, which I believe Signal does, so Apple can't see it on the APNS side, but your local extension to decrypt the content is still subject to the user's settings, and part of the notification history if you put message content in the notification.

Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#249

Post by jshier »

SwtCyber wrote: post #201
pigggg wrote: post #106

Just curious, how come at least once a month signal bugs me to turn on notifications? I said no for a reason, every single time - why does it keep asking? Not implying anything evil but it feels a bit weird esp after this.

Pretty sure that's just iOS behavior + app design. If notifications are off, apps will occasionally prompt again to make sure you didn't disable them by accident or miss something

No, the OS will not do that, nor is the developer able to trigger the system prompt again when they detect the user has notifications off. Only thing they can do is present their own prompt and link out to the Settings app for the app's settings. Can't even deep link to the app's notification settings.

Re: FBI used iPhone notification data to retrieve deleted Signal messages

#250

Post by nixosbestos »

gumby271 wrote: post #199
nixosbestos wrote: post #70

Um. Android has notification history also and I see no similar ability to hide notification content from the system ...

In the Signal app itself there's an option to hide the message body or both the sender and body, that way the OS wont have anything to store in the history.

-_- I see it now, on Android. Thanks for prompting me to recheck.
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