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Coding agents could make free software matter again

gjlondon.com

241–250 of 351 posts

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#241
post #189

Having over a decade of open source software I've written freely available online, I actually really appreciate the value that AI && LLMs have provided me. The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the fact that my works were likely included in the training data and, if it doesn't violate my licenses (GNU 2/3), it certainly feels against the spirit of what I intended when distributing my works. I was made redu…

The other day I was working with some shaders GLSL signed distance field functions. I asked Claude to review the code and it immediately offered to replace some functions with "known solutions". Turns out those functions were basically a verbatim copy of Inigo Quilez's work. His work is available with a permissible license on the Internet but somehow it doesn't seem right that a tool will just regurgitate someone els…

LLMs have already told you these are "known solutions", which implicitly means they are established, non-original approaches. So the key point is really on the user side—if you simply ask one more question, like where these "known solutions" come from, the LLM will likely tell you that these formulas are attributed to Inigo Quilez.

So in my view, if you treat an LLM as a tool for retrieving knowledge or solutions, there isn't really a problem here. And honestly, the line between "knowledge" and "creation" can be quite blurry. For example, when you use Newton's Second Law (F = ma), you don't explicitly state that it comes from Isaac Newton every time—but that doesn't mean you're not respecting his contribution.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#242
post #64

If I look around in the FLOSS communities, I see a lot of skepticism towards LLMs. The main concerns are: 1. they were trained on FLOSS repositories without consent of the authors, including GPL and AGPL repos 2. the best models are proprietary 3. folks making low-effort contribution attempts using AI (PRs, security reports, etc). I agree those are legitimate problems but LLMs are the new reality, they are not going…

> one can break monopolies open using LLMs Let me know when you succeed. > the GPL is only a means to an end And how this end is closer with LLMs?

> And how this end is closer with LLMs?

The blog post of this thread argues that now, even average users have the ability to modify GPL'd code thanks to LLMs. The bigger advantage though is that one can use it to break open software monopolies in the first place.

A lot of such monopolies are based on proprietary formats.

If LLM swarms can build a browser (not from scratch) and C compiler (from scratch), they can also build an LLVM backend for a bespoke architecture that only has a proprietary C compiler for it. They can also build adobe software replacements, pdf editors, debug/fix linux driver issues, etc.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#243
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, most companies never distribute their models. So GPL doesn't kick in.

I think that the claim that they make is that once a model is "contaminated" with GPL code, every output it ever produces should be considered derived from GPL code, therefore GPL-licensed as well.

So GitHub and Windows and IDEs need to be open source because they can output FOSS code? That's obviously rediculous.

If an AI outputs copyrighted code, that is a copyright violation. And if it does and a human uses it, then you are welcome to sue the human or LLM provider for that. But you don't get to sue people for perceived "latent" thought crimes.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#244
Good piece, but two things work against the thesis:

The Sunsama example actually argues the opposite direction. He spent an afternoon hacking around a closed system with an agent and it worked. If agents are good enough to reverse-engineer and workaround proprietary software today, the urgency to switch to open source decreases, not increases. "Good enough" workarounds are how SaaS stays sticky.

And agents don't eliminate the trust problem, they move it. Today you trust Sunsama with your workflows. In this vision, you trust your agent to correctly interpret your intent, modify code safely, and not introduce security holes. Non-technical users can't audit agent-modified code any better than they could audit the original source. You've traded one black box for another.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>my repos have commits authored by Claude, Dependabot, GitHub Advanced Security Bot, Copilot, etc. Unless you're using an enterprise license that indemnifies your liabilities, you're almost certainly breaking copyright law and your packages are unusable by any serious company as a dependency. Even permissive OSS licenses like MIT don't take effect since they're predicated on the author actually holding a valid copyri…

Given that Claude is attributed to 19M+ commits on GitHub, it will be interesting to see where this ends up. Specifically on copyright, it will be interesting to see if any DMCA takedown notices are filed, including popular projects such as OpenClaw, GSD, Gas Town, Vibium, and others. More on the 19M+ commits here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47501348

This argument sounds like "Well, it's too big to fail now, so it's legal for them. For all you smaller peons, it's still illegal".

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#246
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's no meaningful case by the letter of the law that use of training data that include GPL-licensed software in models that comprise the core component of modern LLMs doesn't obligate every producer of such models to make both the models and the software stack supporting them available under the same terms. Of course, it also seems clear in the present landscape that the law often depends more on the conv…

> I think there's no meaningful case by the letter of the law that use of training data that include GPL-licensed software in models that comprise the core component of modern LLMs doesn't obligate every producer of such models to make both the models and the software stack supporting them available under the same terms. Why do you think "fair use" doesn't apply in this case? The prior Bartz vs Anthropic ruling laid…

You sound like you're citing the general Internet understanding of "fair use", which seems to amount to "I can do whatever I like to any copyrighted content as long as maybe I mutilate it enough and shout 'FAIR USE!' loudly enough."

On the real measures of "fair use", at least in the US: https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/four-factors/ I would contend that it absolutely face plants on all four measures. The purpose is absolutely in the form of a "replacement" for the original, the nature is something that has been abundantly proved many times over in court as being something copyrightable as a creative expression (with limited exceptions for particular bits of code that are informational), the "amount and substantiality" of the portions used is "all of it", and the effect of use is devastating to the market value of the original.

You may disagree. A long comment thread may ensue. However, all I really need for my point here is simply that it is far, far from obvious that waving the term "FAIR USE!" around is a sufficient defense. It would be a lengthy court case, not a slam-dunk "well duh it's obvious this is fair use". The real "fair use" and not the internet's "FAIR USE!" bear little resemblance to each other.

A sibling comment mentions Bartz v. Anthropic. Looking more at the details of the case I don't think it's obvious how to apply it, other than as a proof that just because an AI company acquired some material in "some manner" doesn't mean they can just do whatever with it. The case ruled they still had to buy a copy. I can easily make a case that "buying a copy" in the case of a GPL-2 codebase is "agreeing to the license" and that such an agreement could easily say "anything trained on this must also be released as GPL-2". It's a somewhat lengthy road to travel, where each step could result in a failure, but the same can be said for the road to "just because I can lay my hands on it means I can feed it to my AI and 100% own the result" and that has already had a step fail.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the claim that they make is that once a model is "contaminated" with GPL code, every output it ever produces should be considered derived from GPL code, therefore GPL-licensed as well.

So GitHub and Windows and IDEs need to be open source because they can output FOSS code? That's obviously rediculous. If an AI outputs copyrighted code, that is a copyright violation. And if it does and a human uses it, then you are welcome to sue the human or LLM provider for that. But you don't get to sue people for perceived "latent" thought crimes.

First of all, I'm not advocating for this claim, I'm merely trying to clarify what other people say.

That being said, I don't think that your analogy is valid in this case.

> GitHub and Windows and IDEs need to be open source because they can output FOSS code

They can output FOSS code, but they themselves are not derived from FOSS code.

It can be argued that the weights of a model is derived from training data, because they contain something from the training data (hard to say what exactly: knowledge, ideas, patterns?)

It can also be argued that output is derived from weights.

If we accept both of those claims, then GPL training data -> GPL weighs -> every output is GPL

> If an AI outputs copyrighted code

Again, the issue is not what exactly does AI output, but where it comes from.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#248
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's no meaningful case by the letter of the law that use of training data that include GPL-licensed software in models that comprise the core component of modern LLMs doesn't obligate every producer of such models to make both the models and the software stack supporting them available under the same terms. Of course, it also seems clear in the present landscape that the law often depends more on the conv…

That's always what laws existed for, a law is just a formal way of saying "we will use violence against you if you do something we don't like" and that has always going to be primary written by and for the people that already have the power to do that, it's not the worst, certainly better than Kings just being able to do as they please.

> certainly better than Kings just being able to do as they please

That's debatable. In case of a king you always know whom to blame and who has full responsibility. No opportunity to hide behind "well, you voted for this" or "I'm not making the laws, I'm merely enforcing them".

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#249
post #213
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say it like it's a bad thing.

I say that like it's a thing. LLMs have the goal of replacing intellectual work with passive consumption. People seem to like that.

Basically, the selling point of LLMs is that you no longer need to think about problems, you can skip directly to results. Anything that you have to think about while using them today is somewhere on the product roadmap, or will be.

Many people think this is a form of utopia.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that Claude is attributed to 19M+ commits on GitHub, it will be interesting to see where this ends up. Specifically on copyright, it will be interesting to see if any DMCA takedown notices are filed, including popular projects such as OpenClaw, GSD, Gas Town, Vibium, and others. More on the 19M+ commits here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47501348

This argument sounds like "Well, it's too big to fail now, so it's legal for them. For all you smaller peons, it's still illegal".

That's not the intention. The intention is:

1. The code generated should be available to use. Some languages are simple enough there is an obvious way to do it. Many companies have developer programs with staff producing code intended to be used in the form of open source SDKs, example code, and tutorials.

2. If on the off chance, there is code that shouldn't be there, people should use DMCA. Anthropic, GitHub, and others support this.

3. At the macro level, it's hard to know know where this is going, so we should look to bellwether apps with more attention for guidance.

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