Live data from Hacker News

Coding agents could make free software matter again

gjlondon.com

91–100 of 351 posts

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$700 a day of tokens can't possibly be sustainable right? That's 2X the salary of a lot of the world's software developers

AUD* - so $450 USD But yes, that's very expensive and surprising to me.

Ah a fellow Aussie, hi! Sorry to hear about the redundancy (Atlassian?).

I did implicitly assume USD but yeah still crazy cash, that'd pay for 2 junior-mid level devs in aus D=

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#92

Having over a decade of open source software I've written freely available online, I actually really appreciate the value that AI && LLMs have provided me. The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the fact that my works were likely included in the training data and, if it doesn't violate my licenses (GNU 2/3), it certainly feels against the spirit of what I intended when distributing my works. I was made redu…

> I've been looking for a copy-left "source available" license that allows me to distribute code openly but has a clause that says "if you would like to use these sources to train an LLM, please contact me and we'll work something out". I haven't yet found that Frankly do you think AI companies have even the remotest amount of respect for these licenses anyways? They will simply take your code if it is publicly scrap…

Traditionally, large corporations have taken very conservative legal stances with regard to integrating e.g. A/GPL code, even when there's almost no risk.

If my license explicitly says "any LLM output trained on this code is legally tainted," I feel like BigAICorp would be foolish to ignore it. Maybe I couldn't sue them today, but are they confident this will remain the case 5, 10, 20 years from now? Everywhere in the world?

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#93
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agents can clearly strip out functionality from libraries already. They can certainly backport patches to whatever parts you strip out. The advantage of decoupling from supply chain attacks is so large that I expect this to be standard practice as soon as later this year.

Agents can read the binary that makes up a compiled file and detect behavior directly from that. I've been doing it to inspect my own builds for the presence of a feature.

Yeah. I think people are deluding themselves as to how capable these models are now.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#94

Having over a decade of open source software I've written freely available online, I actually really appreciate the value that AI && LLMs have provided me. The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the fact that my works were likely included in the training data and, if it doesn't violate my licenses (GNU 2/3), it certainly feels against the spirit of what I intended when distributing my works. I was made redu…

My personal take is that LLMs are so transformative that they are likely not going to qualify under derivative works and therefore GPL wouldn't hold sway. There's already some evidence that courts will consider training on copyrighted material fair use, so long as it is otherwise obtained legally, which would be the case with software licensed under GPL.

I realize this is an unpopular opinion on HN, but I believe it is best because it's a weakener interpretation of copyright law, which is overall a good thing in my view.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#95
post #30

Having over a decade of open source software I've written freely available online, I actually really appreciate the value that AI && LLMs have provided me. The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the fact that my works were likely included in the training data and, if it doesn't violate my licenses (GNU 2/3), it certainly feels against the spirit of what I intended when distributing my works. I was made redu…

I think there's no meaningful case by the letter of the law that use of training data that include GPL-licensed software in models that comprise the core component of modern LLMs doesn't obligate every producer of such models to make both the models and the software stack supporting them available under the same terms. Of course, it also seems clear in the present landscape that the law often depends more on the conv…

That's always what laws existed for, a law is just a formal way of saying "we will use violence against you if you do something we don't like" and that has always going to be primary written by and for the people that already have the power to do that, it's not the worst, certainly better than Kings just being able to do as they please.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#96
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's no meaningful case by the letter of the law that use of training data that include GPL-licensed software in models that comprise the core component of modern LLMs doesn't obligate every producer of such models to make both the models and the software stack supporting them available under the same terms. Of course, it also seems clear in the present landscape that the law often depends more on the conv…

Intellectual property never made much sense to begin with. But it certainly makes no sense now, where the common creator has no protections against greedy corporate giants who are happy to wield the full weight of the courts to stifle any competition for longer than we'll be alive. Or, in the case of LLMs, recklessly swing about software they don't understand while praying to find a business model.

hey just don't try to copy their LLM by distilling it, cause that's "theft", if we weren't all doomed anyways this industry would have never been allowed to exist in the first place, but I guess this is just what the last few decades of our civilization will look like.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Derivative work.

Let's cut the rot off at the root rather than pretending like the fruit is going to nourish us.

I’m not entirely clear on what you’re suggesting abolishing here, copyright, AI, the companies making the frontier models?

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too, and I use LLMs often for personal and professional work. Knowing that colleagues are burning through $700/day worth of tokens, and a small fraction of those tokens were likely derived from my work while I get made redundant is a bit shite.

$700 a day of tokens can't possibly be sustainable right? That's 2X the salary of a lot of the world's software developers

and that's at the VC funded discount rate I would presume, not even true cost of those tokens without any profit.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#99
post #84

“Their relationship with the software is one of pure dependency, and when the software doesn’t do what they need, they just… live with it” Or, more likely, they churn off the product. The SaaS platforms that will survive are busy RIGHT NOW revamping their APIs, implementing oauth, and generally reorganizing their products to be discovered and manipulated by agents. Failing in this effort will ultimately result in the…

And I think it’s less about letting agents modify the product source. That’s more of a platform capability which should also be a requirement for certain types of use cases. All comes back to listening to and / or innovating for customers.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#100

I think the opposite. It will make all software matter less. If trendlines continue... It will be faster for AI to vibe code said software to your customized specifications than to sign up for a SaaS and learn it. "Claude, create a project management tool that simplifies jira, customize it to my workflow." So a lot of apps will actually become closed source personalized builds.

if the trendlines continue on atmospheric greenhouse gases we will all be dead from climate change so I really do hope the world is a little bit more complicated than trendlines just extrapolating out. Interestingly enough that might actually be bad for OpenAI since it will be difficult to sell their product if their customers are dying from heat stroke.
Post reply on HN