I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me • Hacker News Board

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#241

Post by dpark » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 6:16 PM UTC

manofmanysmiles wrote: post #225

dpark wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you implying other people's emotional immaturity is exclusively my problem to solve? Ignoring others emotions is not a sign of emotional maturity. The inability to empathize with others and make meaningful predictions about how their emotions will affect communications is specifically a lack of emotional maturity. This kind of sentiment comes up every time this topic is raised. This idea that we should be able…

> Ignoring others emotions is not a sign of emotional maturity. I completely agree. > The inability to empathize with others and make meaningful predictions about how their emotions will affect communications is specifically a lack of emotional maturity. I completely agree. > Case in point. You had an emotional reaction to the parent comment, and you responded with an attempt to shame the communication style rather t…

> Yes I did. I am still curious how OP expects that to be received.

I’m curious why you perceive their statement to be made as if it’s a pronouncement from God and not a simply a statement of their view on the issue.

> I think I agree here too. What do you mean?

I mean that you both responded emotionally and communicated with an emotional appeal. You exaggerated what OP actually said and called it a mandate from God. This isn’t factual engagement. It’s emotional.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#242

Post by mayhemducks » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 6:25 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #214

mayhemducks wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you want to work with you? Maybe yes. But if I am making a choice about who to work with, I would prefer someone who has enough empathy and awareness to realize that it's possible that the interviewer might be running behind through no fault of their own. I would extend that to the my team members, and I hope they would in-turn, extend that to me. You sound to me like someone who sees "please be direct and stra…

If I showed up late halfway through the interview, I would almost certainly not get an offer, and if the hiring manager called me out on that fact then no one would call that manager an asshole. I am not “nitpicking every little thing” and I feel like there’s a lot of extrapolation going on there. I do think it’s extremely disrespectful to schedule a meeting and show up very late so that the interviewee doesn’t have…

One of the best people I have ever worked with was somebody I interviewed and recommended be hired. She missed her first interview entirely. I was waiting for her to show up, annoyed that she was late, and she called me and said she needed to reschedule. At the time, she was hiking in the greenbelt on a beautiful day. I said, sure, we rescheduled, and she was a huge asset to the team. I kept the details of having to reschedule her interview quiet - because they had no bearing at all on her ability to do a good job.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#243

Post by jmward01 » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 6:27 PM UTC

lokar wrote: post #166

jmward01 wrote: post #142

The writer asks for it, so I will be blunt. They are demanding people have perfectly formed thoughts crafted in a way to give them just the information they wanted with no consideration for the process of thinking or consideration for the person speaking. It is selfish and impossible. Articles like this, I think, expose how bad we have gotten at both speaking and listening. "I personally value directness, so when som…

Context matters. You communicate differently in person vs with async text. If you don’t have your thoughts together, if you see a problem but are not sure of the fix, just say that. Make it clear why you are communicating with me, do you have a specific request? A question? Just want to chat? Have a general discussion about an issue? All fine, just be clear

I totally missed/muddled the 'clarity' and 'unity' arguments in my response. It would have been a great final point. There is a big difference between being direct and being clear. When there is an issue, what I am often trying to communicate is my goal to get information and to get the rest of the team on the same page. I am seeking clarity and unity and the tool I am using is communication. But there is a difference between seeking clarity/unity and being direct. My points stand about the process of thought and the style of communication there. You can be clear without being direct and being direct is often not the right answer and not even possible.

In a previous life I was a pilot. Communication in aviation is exceptionally clear and direct. It is that way because time matters and understanding matters but also because the vast majority of situations have been clearly identified, thought out and formalized well before you are in the air. I suspect other environments have this too, like an operating room. In training we had a system of 'shacks' where if you messed up on the radio in the pattern the day before you owed a 'shack' (a beer to the common fridge) by the next day. The comms there were ridiculously direct and clear but also incredibly formalized. There were exact words for exact situations and the tree of possible interactions, and the communication required, were almost 100% memorized. However, as soon as things got a little out of the norm so did the comms. You really can't have perfect 'direct' communication with dynamic systems. The shack system was great because it shows both sides of the communication world. It emphasized the incredibly direct communication world but then when your mistakes came to light there generally was a lot of indirect communication involved discussing the shack.

I would hate to think that software design is so well thought out that all communication could be formalized like aviation or an operating room. It would mean the age of the code assistant really is going to take engineering away because anything so perfectly formalized can also easily be learned by an LLM.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#244

Post by mayhemducks » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 6:28 PM UTC

jpdb wrote: post #240

mayhemducks wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oooh this is good! So - I agree with part of this. When a conversational partner chooses to communicate a certain way because of how they want to be perceived, they are living out their values. And I admire that, and I think it is an important component of a healthy organization. But, if you would, allow me to describe the distress I feel when I have to take in "extra words". Because I personally do not feel it as ex…

Given that you literally started your response with a pleasant agreement and affirmation on my point makes feel like you are arguing this in bad faith, but if statements like, "how was your weekend" included in an ask cause you distress then you are so maladapt to society to the point that you should have close to zero expectations for others to accommodate your needs in public spaces such as a work environment. You…

Indeed. I am quite maladapted to society. That's my point - thanks for making it more obvious!

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#245

Post by tombert » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 6:43 PM UTC

mayhemducks wrote: post #242

tombert wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I showed up late halfway through the interview, I would almost certainly not get an offer, and if the hiring manager called me out on that fact then no one would call that manager an asshole. I am not “nitpicking every little thing” and I feel like there’s a lot of extrapolation going on there. I do think it’s extremely disrespectful to schedule a meeting and show up very late so that the interviewee doesn’t have…

One of the best people I have ever worked with was somebody I interviewed and recommended be hired. She missed her first interview entirely. I was waiting for her to show up, annoyed that she was late, and she called me and said she needed to reschedule. At the time, she was hiking in the greenbelt on a beautiful day. I said, sure, we rescheduled, and she was a huge asset to the team. I kept the details of having to…

I dare say that you are an outlier. When I have shown up significantly late for interviews they often cut it short before it even really starts.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#246

Post by mrkandel » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 6:51 PM UTC

thyristan wrote: post #203

jmward01 wrote: post #142

The writer asks for it, so I will be blunt. They are demanding people have perfectly formed thoughts crafted in a way to give them just the information they wanted with no consideration for the process of thinking or consideration for the person speaking. It is selfish and impossible. Articles like this, I think, expose how bad we have gotten at both speaking and listening. "I personally value directness, so when som…

> The better a person is at communication the more they will fit their message to the audience to get the action intended. If 'direct' really works then over time it will be used but the fact that direct isn't used often implies strongly that it doesn't work for most people or it has secondary effects that are too negative. Demanding the exception is a pretty big ask especially if your aren't willing to meet half way…

>There are indirect cultures, where communication is primarily intended to convey social status, manipulate social bonds, or perform culturally necessary rituals

Very strange way to say being polite.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#247

Post by comboy » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 6:51 PM UTC

tasuki wrote: post #231

comboy wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's your worldview. Crocker's rules is that you don't have to take receiver feelings into account you just communicate efficently.

No, abiding by Crocker's rules isn't that you don't take into account other people's feelings. It's that other people don't have to take into account your feelings .

Applying them to only one side of the conversation doesn't seem practical.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#248

Post by slopinthebag » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 7:00 PM UTC

devmor wrote: post #236

slopinthebag wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They wrote an entire article about how they hate when someone says they hope they had a nice weekend...

If that is what you took from the article I think you might have some language development issues yourself, friend.

Be more direct with me. Don't say things like "If that is what you took" or "I think", you're just wasting my time.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#249

Post by mrkandel » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 7:02 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #214

mayhemducks wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you want to work with you? Maybe yes. But if I am making a choice about who to work with, I would prefer someone who has enough empathy and awareness to realize that it's possible that the interviewer might be running behind through no fault of their own. I would extend that to the my team members, and I hope they would in-turn, extend that to me. You sound to me like someone who sees "please be direct and stra…

If I showed up late halfway through the interview, I would almost certainly not get an offer, and if the hiring manager called me out on that fact then no one would call that manager an asshole. I am not “nitpicking every little thing” and I feel like there’s a lot of extrapolation going on there. I do think it’s extremely disrespectful to schedule a meeting and show up very late so that the interviewee doesn’t have…

If the manager told you

"You don't value our time, you show up late, how do you expect us to value your time?"

Or something to that extent, that would be extremely rude. It's like a line out of Wolf of wall street or those trump movies - "You're fired!".

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#250

Post by scoofy » Sat, Mar 14, 2026, 7:09 PM UTC

rawgabbit wrote: post #211

tracerbulletx wrote: post #177

The idea that how your audience receives the communication is their problem and not yours is entirely why some engineers are shit communicators and seem lost when facing the realities of human culture and politics. You might wish the world would all just think exactly like you but the moods, interest, and preferences of the people around you are YOUR PROBLEM and you need to engage with them if you want to accomplish…

”What it means in practice is that your colleague can write "this approach is wrong, here's why" instead of "hey, hope you're doing well, I had some time to look at your PR and I just wanted to shared a few small thoughts, please take these as just one perspective, and of course you know the codebase better than I do, but I was wondering if maybe we could potentially consider [useful thing here]" and then bury the ac…

There are even practical ways to allow this type of exchange. However, they require a truly egalitarian business relationship, mutual respect, and signaling mechanism to note when to be blunt and when to be decent.

If these conditions aren't met, then a subordinate could trivially get fired because they're superior hadn't had breakfast or lunch that day and was just hangry.