Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you think programmers in offshoring consulting shops are? Sadly.
Exactly. I work in a consulting company as a customer facing staff consultant - highest level - specializing in cloud + app dev. We don’t hire anyone less than staff in the US. Anything lower is hired out of the country. That’s exactly my point. “Programming” was clearly becoming commoditized a decade ago.
Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
241–250 of 304 posts
Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Eventually, we'll end up in a world where humans don't need to touch code, but we are not there yet. Will we though? Wouldn't AI need to reach a stage where it is a tool, like a compiler, which is 100% deterministic?
Two things to mention here: 1. You are right that we can redefine what is code. If code is the central artefact that humans are dealing with to tell machines and other humans how the system works, then CodeSpeak specs will become code, and CodeSpeak will be a compiler. This is why I often refer to CodeSpeak as a next-level programming language. 2. I don't think being deterministic per se is what matters. Being predic…
Human carpenters are not deterministic yet they won't use a machine saw that goes off line even 1% of the time. The whole history of tools, including software, is one of trying to make the thing do more precisely what is intended, whether the intent is right or not.
Can you imagine some machine tool maker making something faulty and then saying, "Well hey, humans aren't deterministic."
Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it? If the spec is as detailed as the code would be? If you make a change to one part of the spec do you now have inconsistencies that the LLM is going to have to resolve in some way? Are we going to have a compiler, or type checker type tools for the spec to catch these errors sooner?
It IS a compiler. You might as well ask if the machine-language output of a C compiler is as detailed as the C code was. To anticipate your objection: you can get over determinism now, or you can get over it later. You will get over it, though, if you intend to stay in this business.
What are you talking about? If an LLM is a compiler, then I'm a compiler. Are we going to redefine the meaning of words in order not to upset the LLM makers?
Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
#244`codespeak build` — takes the spec and turns it into code via LLM, like a non-deterministic compiler.
`codespeak takeover` — reads a file and creates a spec from it.
You can progressively opt in ("mixed mode") so it only touches files you allow it to (and makes new ones if needed).
Pros:
- Formalised version of the "agentic engineering" many are already doing, but might actually get people to store their specs and decisions in a concise way that seems more sane than committing your entire meandering chat session.
- Encouraging people to review spec and code side-by-side at a file level seems reasonable. Could even build an IDE/plugin around that concept to auto-load/navigate the spec and code side-by-side like their examples: https://codespeak.dev/shrink-factor/markitdown-eml. If tokens per second for popular models continues to improve, could even update the spec by hand and see the code regenerate live on the fly, perhaps via `codespeak watch`.
- Reduces the code you have to write by 5-10x. Largely by convincing you not to write it any more. Our graphics cards write the code for us in this timeline and many people are even happy about it.
- As models improve, could optionally re-run `build` against the same original spec. (Why do that if the output already produces the intended result and the test suite still passes? Presumably for simpler code. Or faster output. Or lower memory use. Or simply _different_ bugs.)
- Moves programming back toward structured thinking backed by a committed artifact and a solid two-word command you can run, instead of actively having conversations with far away GPUs like that's normal now.
- Could theoretically swap out the build target language if you grow to trust the build process to be your babelfish/specfish. Kind of Haxe with Markdown.
Cons:
- Seems to be gated by their login, can't bring your own model?
- Suspect the labs can all clone this concept very easily. `claude build` and `claude spec`?
The idea of a non-deterministic 'build' command had me cringing at first. But formalising a process many are using anyway that currently feels pretty sloppy perhaps isn't so terrible.
If nothing else, writing `build` is a lot quicker and maintains a whisker of self-respect. At least compared to typing, "please take this spec and adapt the Python accordingly" followed 2 minutes later by, "I updated the spec to deal with the edge-case you missed, try again but don't miss anything this time".
Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly. I work in a consulting company as a customer facing staff consultant - highest level - specializing in cloud + app dev. We don’t hire anyone less than staff in the US. Anything lower is hired out of the country. That’s exactly my point. “Programming” was clearly becoming commoditized a decade ago.
Ah, so you’re happy with the sweatshop existing - and you look down on those who work there. Good to know.
But while you are clutching your pearls, where do you think your computer, clothes etc are being made?
Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
#246> - Encoding auto-detection and normalization for beautifulsoup4
I was kinda expecting to see the name "chardet" pop up here. :-)
Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah, so you’re happy with the sweatshop existing - and you look down on those who work there. Good to know.
I said nothing about looking down on them - I assure you developers in other countries don’t see themselves in sweatshop conditions. But while you are clutching your pearls, where do you think your computer, clothes etc are being made?
Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
#248Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
#249Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
I said nothing about looking down on them - I assure you developers in other countries don’t see themselves in sweatshop conditions. But while you are clutching your pearls, where do you think your computer, clothes etc are being made?
I worked with developers from 6 other countries (the “america first” slogan of the ruling part is missing a fine print that should read “americans last”) and not only are they not in sweatshop conditions, most of them live like kings on salaries they are making and are more “white collar” in their country than most SWEs here