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Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

codespeak.dev

71–80 of 304 posts

Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

#71

This doesn't make too much sense to me. * This isn't a language, it's some tooling to map specs to code and re-generate * Models aren't deterministic - every time you would try to re-apply you'd likely get different output (without feeding the current code into the re-apply and let it just recommend changes) * Models are evolving rapidly, this months flavour of Codex/Sonnet/etc would very likely generate different co…

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Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

#73
So, instead of making LLMs smarter let’s make everything abstract again? Because everyone wants to learn another tool? Or is this supposed to be something I tell Claude, “Hey make some code to make some code!” I’m struggling to see the benefit of this vs. just telling Claude to save its plan for re-use.

Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

#74
post #35

This doesn't make too much sense to me. * This isn't a language, it's some tooling to map specs to code and re-generate * Models aren't deterministic - every time you would try to re-apply you'd likely get different output (without feeding the current code into the re-apply and let it just recommend changes) * Models are evolving rapidly, this months flavour of Codex/Sonnet/etc would very likely generate different co…

My process has organically evolved towards something similar but less strictly defined: - I bootstrap AGENTS.md with my basic way of working and occasionally one or two project specific pieces - I then write a DESIGN.md. How detailed or well specified it is varies from project to project: the other day I wrote a very complete DESIGN.md for a time tracking, invoice management and accounting system I wanted for my free…

I have been building this in my free time and it might be relevant to you: https://github.com/jbonatakis/blackbird

I have the same basic workflow as you outlined, then I feed the docs into blackbird, which generates a structured plan with task and sub tasks. Then you can have it execute tasks in dependency order, with options to pause for review after each task or an automated review when all child task for a given parents are complete.

It’s definitely still got some rough edges but it has been working pretty well for me.

Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No joke. I'm 100% sure that if it's successful, we will find CC's skill to write specs for CodeSpeak.

Yeah. It's hard to express and understand nested structures in a natural language yet they are easy in high-level programming languages. E.g. "the dog of first son of my neighbour" vs "me.neighbour.sons[0].dog", "sunny and hot, or rainy but not cold" vs "(sunny && hot) || (rainy && !cold)". In the past maths were expressed using natural language, the math language exists because natural language isn't clear enough.

Did you mean AbstractNeighborDispatcherFactory?

Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

#76

We built LLMs so that you can express your ideas in English and no longer need to code. Also, English is really too verbose and imprecise for coding, so we developed a programming language you can use instead. Now, this gives me a business idea: are you tired of using CodeSpeak? Just explain your idea to our product in English and we'll generate CodeSpeak for you.

I'm really glad random HN commenters know it better than someone that built a language that has been used in thousands of products.

Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

#77
post #38

As far as I can tell it's not a new language, but rather an alternative workflow for LLM-based development along with a tool that implements it. The idea, IIUC, seems to be that instead of directly telling an LLM agent how to change the code, you keep markdown "spec" files describing what the code does and then the "codespeak" tool runs a diff on the spec files and tells the agent to make those changes; then you chec…

> The limitation seems to be that you can't modify the code yourself if you want the spec to reflect it Eventually, we'll end up in a world where humans don't need to touch code, but we are not there yet. We are looking into ways to "catch up" the specs with whatever changes happen in the code not through CodeSpeak (agents or manual changes or whatever). It's an interesting exercise. In the case of agents, it's very…

> Eventually, we'll end up in a world where humans don't need to touch code, but we are not there yet.

Will we though? Wouldn't AI need to reach a stage where it is a tool, like a compiler, which is 100% deterministic?

Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

#78
post #35

This doesn't make too much sense to me. * This isn't a language, it's some tooling to map specs to code and re-generate * Models aren't deterministic - every time you would try to re-apply you'd likely get different output (without feeding the current code into the re-apply and let it just recommend changes) * Models are evolving rapidly, this months flavour of Codex/Sonnet/etc would very likely generate different co…

My process has organically evolved towards something similar but less strictly defined: - I bootstrap AGENTS.md with my basic way of working and occasionally one or two project specific pieces - I then write a DESIGN.md. How detailed or well specified it is varies from project to project: the other day I wrote a very complete DESIGN.md for a time tracking, invoice management and accounting system I wanted for my free…

AGENTS.md is nice but I still need to remind models that it exists and they should read it and not reinvent the wheel every time.

Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

#79

This doesn't make too much sense to me. * This isn't a language, it's some tooling to map specs to code and re-generate * Models aren't deterministic - every time you would try to re-apply you'd likely get different output (without feeding the current code into the re-apply and let it just recommend changes) * Models are evolving rapidly, this months flavour of Codex/Sonnet/etc would very likely generate different co…

> Models aren't deterministic

Is that really true? I haven’t tried to do my own inference since the first Llama models came out years ago, but I am pretty sure it was deterministic: if you fixed the seed and the input was the same, the output of the inference was always exactly the same.

Re: Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English

#80

This doesn't make too much sense to me. * This isn't a language, it's some tooling to map specs to code and re-generate * Models aren't deterministic - every time you would try to re-apply you'd likely get different output (without feeding the current code into the re-apply and let it just recommend changes) * Models are evolving rapidly, this months flavour of Codex/Sonnet/etc would very likely generate different co…

> Models aren't deterministic Is that really true? I haven’t tried to do my own inference since the first Llama models came out years ago, but I am pretty sure it was deterministic: if you fixed the seed and the input was the same, the output of the inference was always exactly the same.

LLMs are not deterministic:

1.) There is typically a temperature setting (even when not exposed, most major providers have stopped exposing it [esp in the TUIs]).

2.) Then, even with the temperature set to 0, it will be almost deterministic but you'll still observe small variations due to the limited precision of float numbers.

Edit: thanks for the corrections

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