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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#241

Post by lukan »

Noaidi wrote: post #212
lukan wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What if the next day his hope came back?" What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? And people don't get any younger. My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then. I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me,…

> What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith. Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists under…

Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe)

So sure, suffering and pain are part of life. And accepting that helps a lot to not get stuck in that condition by avoiding painful things, you cannot avoid.

"Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they?"

So no, not anyone is saying that. Only those with a death wish.

And I don't consider having a death wish as a mental condition. It can of course result of a illness, but it can also be a consciouss wish and then finally a decision.

And if other people decide they may not do this, but have to remain in their state of living hell, then this is just torture to me.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#242

Post by masklinn »

nemo1618 wrote: post #225
masklinn wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard fast (e.g. hunger strikes) usually take about 2 months to kill a healthy adult. On the one hand according to the wiki this is more progressive removing food by degrees which would make the process a lot longer. On the other hand being a mostly ascetic practice I'd assume it's done by people who have a lot less reserves (body fat and muscle) which would shorten the process significantly (the 207kg Angus Barbieri…

Liquids are also removed (gradually). For someone already in weakened condition, I would be surprised if the process took longer than two weeks.

Ah I'd missed that part, in that case yes it would go much faster, dehydration is a quick way out (though not a comfortable one).

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#243

Post by pantalaimon »

dotnet00 wrote: post #164
cwillu wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can quite easily draw a line that society does not get to force someone to live a tormented existence in spite of their prior declaration that they do not want to be tormented. “It shouldn't be that way” is not an excuse to torture people through your moralizing indifference to the fact that it is that way.

The entire issue they're pointing to is that deciding that someone's existence is sufficiently tormented is difficult and morally fraught.

If you visit an elderly care home you'll find plenty of people who express their wish that they don't want to live any longer. It's not getting better for them - they are just waiting for the day to come, often in agony.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#244

Post by perching_aix »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #211
wazdra wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valuing how others remember you is definitely a motivation in life for many. I respect that it is not your own, respect that it may be mine. It is by no means "absurd".

It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. This is the vice of “human respect”. Human beings do not have a final say about others. They can opine, but opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. Sure, it is nice to be remembered well, if you deserve it, but I do not live for the opinions of others. This is slave mentality and pathetic. I care about being good, and if I am hated for th…

> It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods.

Care to name even a single objective good, and explain how exactly it is objectively good?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#245

Post by flextheruler »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #211
wazdra wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valuing how others remember you is definitely a motivation in life for many. I respect that it is not your own, respect that it may be mine. It is by no means "absurd".

It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. This is the vice of “human respect”. Human beings do not have a final say about others. They can opine, but opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. Sure, it is nice to be remembered well, if you deserve it, but I do not live for the opinions of others. This is slave mentality and pathetic. I care about being good, and if I am hated for th…

The point is he deserved to be remembered well but due to recency bias and the severity of whatever he did during the end stages of his disease he will not be. I personally suffered immense trauma in my early 20s when I moved to a really cheap place. My parents refused to believe me that there was a black mold and general mold problem in the place I was living and that it was causing me psychological distress and flaring up my eczema. Despite all evidence that I had they dismissed it because I had told them I was depressed beforehand. They are not very in touch with empathy or compassion or mental health. Very old-fashioned view that these things are character flaws which are not to be spoken of. Anyways they dismissed my concerns did not read my messages or view my pictures of personal property being destroyed and the landlord not responding to me, the whole rental was illegitimate and I had identified that early on they even ignored that I got a scalp infection which I had to take oral anti-fungal medication to get rid of. The preponderance of evidence was so overwhelming, but for whatever reason they could not admit I had been right and that they were wrong and refused to help me and actively discouraged me from taking legal action or even to move home for months. Eventually I was blessed with an extended relative who gave me shelter. During one of the worst parts of this period my parents even went so far as to assert that what was actually happening to me was the onset of paranoid schizophrenia. I was close to the right age and sex for it to happen. I knew that paranoid schizophrenics often become homeless and violent and the general awfulness of the condition. If it was not for my own investigation that there was no family history of it and a friend who believed what I was saying and told me that I needed to leave the house and then finally extended family I had a plan to no longer exist. This was partially out of not wanting to be remembered badly, but also so many other things like; not wanting to hurt my loved ones, not wanting to hurt strangers, not wanting to slowly degrade into an unstable and potentially dangerous person and of course the median life expectancy for that condition is so low. I lacked the constitution to allow myself to become someone who would likely damage the world and severely damage those close to me so my logical conclusion based on a false premise during those couple days was to nip it in the bud so to speak as it's a progressive condition. My relationship with my parents has not been the same since, but how could it be. I am forever indebted to a friend and extended family... they quite literally saved my life.

The end point being that with the parents I have there was nearly a guaranteed outcome of only objectively bad things happening for me, for them, for people around me. During that state I saw my plan as honorable and wrote it down in what I was to leave to explain my actions.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#246

Post by ants_everywhere »

Zak wrote: post #226
ants_everywhere wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 60% of the patients who died with Kevorkian's help were not terminally ill, and at least 13 had not complained of pain....The report also stated that Kevorkian failed to refer at least 17 patients to a pain specialist after they complained of chronic pain and sometimes failed to obtain a complete medical record for his patients, with at least three autopsies of suicides Kevorkian had assisted with showing the perso…

This doesn't seem to be an example of assisted suicide being recommended to disabled people who didn't want to die. Mainstream medical practice at the time condemned Kevorkian, and anyone seeking out his services was certainly aware that what he offered was death.

Euthanization of the disabled has been a consistent part of the eugenics movement. For example George Bernard Shaw quote

> A part of eugenic politics would finally land us in an extensive use of the lethal chamber. A great many people would have to be put out of existence simply because it wastes other people's time to look after them.

Shaw and other Fabian Society members were supporters of the group now called Dignity in Dying [0], which used to be called The Voluntary Euthanasia Legalisation Society and was founded by a doctor.

Nazi Germany committed involuntary euthanasia of disabled people in a program called Aktion T4 [1]. It's probably not an accident that Dr Kevorkian, an American, started publishing his euthanasia papers in Germany. Before that he was trying to harvest blood and organs from inmates, which is another area where the incentives seem very bad.

I can't comment on how often modern assisted suicide programs recommend it to disabled people who don't want suicide. But it's clear that Kevorkian was not careful about who he recommended assisted suicide to. So given the strong desire of some people to euthanize the disabled against their will, the lack of carefulness is concerning and suggests that it likely happens with some regularity except in exceptionally run programs.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignity_in_Dying

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#247

Post by mynameisash »

ipaddr wrote: post #220
mynameisash wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also not care how people think of you now?

Live your life for you not for others opinions which are fleeting anyways.

How would you square building and maintaining flourishing relationships if you don't care for others?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#248

Post by hrimfaxi »

lukan wrote: post #241
Noaidi wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith. Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists under…

Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe) So sure, suffering and pain are part of life. And accepting that helps a lot to not get stuck in that condition by avoiding painful things, you cannot avoid. "Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't…

> Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe)

At the very least, suffering (through childbirth) is a prerequisite to bringing life into this world.

edit: strange that this is flagged. my parent asked for proof that suffering is inherent in life, and I don't know anyone who has said that the physical act of giving birth is anything but painful.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#249

Post by bityard »

zigzag312 wrote: post #213
bityard wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am really pro assisted suicide as a way of shortening suffering You don't consider years of mental trauma on the individual and years burden and stress on loved ones to be suffering?

That's the issue with assisted suicide. A lot of old people bring burden and stress on loved ones at some point. How many old people will be guilt tripped into an assisted suicide because of this philosophy?

I don't see what that has to do with my comment, but okay: A lot less than are unwillingly bringing undue burden and stress to their family and neighbors because there is no legal mechanism to avoid it. Even fewer if we acknowledge that assisted suicide should be an option with a very high bar for those who would qualify. I wrote another comment about one way it might work.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#250

Post by anonzzzies »

em500 wrote: post #62

I'm surprised and fascinated that this is apparently legal in Switzerland. The Netherlands, famous for allowing assisted suicide, has pretty strict criteria for this[1]. In particular, the physician must "be satisfied that the patient’s suffering is unbearable, with no prospect of improvement", which from this article sounds far from the case here. [1] https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/is-euthanasia-al...

It is surprisingly hard in NL; we have familiar Alzheimer and had some practice by now, but it is very easy (depressingly so) to arrange your assisted suicide for when you get Alzheimer a long time upfront and still not get it because you did something wrong in the procedures/paperwork and end up going through all the suffering you planned out not to go through. It is not 'oh then they just sit in a home without memories'; it is a devastating process definitely far worse than death.
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