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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#241

Post by specialist »

adolph wrote: post #202
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

> some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: > - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. So what happened? Why did the FAA upend a stable hiring process, undercut the CTI schools it had established to train its workforce, and throw the plans of thousands of eager would-be air traffic controllers into disarray? https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...

That was quite the rabbit hole. Thanks for sharing.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#242

Post by bobthepanda »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #156
bobthepanda wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are already a lot of screens and things to look at in a cockpit. and in emergency situations, screens can fail. audio has the advantage of being highly backwards compatible and extremely reliable, so long as the pilots are alive and conscious (and if they're not, the plane is most likely SOL anyways: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 )

>and in emergency situations, screens can fail. Audio makes perfect sense as a backup, but 99.99% of flights would benefit from having a screen showing object and current planned route. In this particular case, simply having that information available would have allowed an onboard computer to predict a collision.

such a system did exist on the American airlines jet, but it does not autocorrect or advise below 1000 feet, since an automated correction in such a busy, low area could make things worse. https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1idrsl6/...

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#243

Post by lazystar »

avn2109 wrote: post #172
ryandrake wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would argue an ATC employee is worth every penny, but I also don't think there is a magical amount of money where you are going to suddenly double your pool of candidates willing to do this kind of work. These people are already very well compensated, and at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools. It wouldn't happen overnight, but surely if ATC had a similar compensation reputat…

The million dollar salary thing is compelling. I would certainly switch careers from ML engineering for a million bucks of cash comp, especially in a low CoL location :) Also, the "30 years old" thing mentioned in the GP seems excessive, surely if they were really desperate to staff up, they could loosen that age limit.

20/20 vision in each eye (no contact lenses) is also a requirement. I have a feeling thatll rule out a lot of software engineers on this site.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#244

Post by csa »

runako wrote: post #121
csa wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But as it is structured, it is designed to get the best folks to leave, and from unpredictable parts of the org and thus is unlikely to show that result. I believe that this is largely how this round will turn out. The numbers look very low so far (20k?). > the administration is not pushing for right-sizing the workforce. They are proposing deeply unpopular cuts to things Americans actually value, without any debat…

> The numbers look very low so far (20k?). I saw that, and it immediately made me realize that it's sort of not a useful number without context. Are those 20k spread roughly evenly across the government, or are there places where everyone quit? I am sure there are parts of government that will cease to function if the wrong 500 people suddenly quit.

> I am sure there are parts of government that will cease to function if the wrong 500 people suddenly quit.

As I mentioned before, I think the folks doing this would be fine with a “cease to function” outcome.

Next steps would be to blame it on the democrats, and then probably privatize it for a song to one of their cronies.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#245

Post by bombcar »

bilbo0s wrote: post #230
mrguyorama wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point of Human ATC is that those rules are breached regularly in normal operations and we still expect traffic to be routed safely despite that One complaint I've seen is that the ATC should not have let the helicopter do visual spacing in that regime, that it was somewhat careless and unsafe and possibly discouraged. If the ATC operator was overloaded with work, they would be incentivized to "outsource" t…

that it was somewhat careless and unsafe and possibly discouraged This is what I mean. Clearly, people are unfamiliar with what actions certain military/government pilots are able to take in that airspace. It's rules . It's not about being encouraged or discouraged or overworked or underworked or rainbow farting unicorns. That's not how ATC works. I would want to change the rules that allow military pilots to do this…

The real problem is that the problem could happen. Even if the helicopter ATC guy was present, and HAD vectored them behind and they HAD complied, or X or Y or Z or whatever had prevented this accident, it would have happened eventually.

The problem isn't that the controller didn't notice they were too close; it is that less than 1000 feet of separation is considered fine and normal and commonplace. It's too close and leaves no room for error.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#247

Post by gamedever »

bloopernova wrote: post #32

(this is going to sound like I think this can be fixed with a technical solution. I don't) I wonder what the software UX is like for ATC, and if there's room for improvement? Is the software/hardware ancient? I'd hope that it is absolutely rock solid but knowing big custom projects I'm not very hopeful!

> this is going to sound like I think this can be fixed with a technical solution. I don't)

Why? It's seems ripe for technical solution. Technical solutions have solved tons of things in the past. What's special about air traffic controlling?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#248

Post by Melatonic »

ryandrake wrote: post #37

If you live in the Bay Area on the Peninsula, you'll be excited to know that the San Carlos airport and the FAA are in a pissing match over their air traffic controllers' pay, threatening to un-staff the control tower and leave that very busy airspace without tower control. The tower was set to go dark on Feb 1st[1] but it looks like there is now a temporary extension[2] keeping it staffed. Why these guys need to pla…

From what I heard the San Carlos controller were pissed that their pay was being drastically reduced - especially considering its not a cheap area to live in.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#249

Post by bobthepanda »

dickfickling wrote: post #178
ryandrake wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, you can process and respond to audio without taking your eyes off of whatever they are on, and without taking your hand off the stick/yoke. I hear in my headset "Clear for the option runway two-five-right, number two behind a cessna, two mile final, on the go make right traffic" and I know exactly what is expected of me without having to look at a screen. A digital display would be a step backwards.

It doesn't sound like GP is saying we have to do away with audio, just that it's absurd to stick to _just_ audio. Great to have a screen that shows "Clear for option 25R etc etc". I think I saw the latest Cirrus planes have something like that, doing live transcription of tower/ATC calls. EDIT: I will add I get that adding something like that to a general aviation cockpit is much easier than putting it on a commercia…

it isn't really just audio though. The pilot is staring at things while talking, and there are automated systems like TCAS that provide alarms and visual indications as well. And a lot of commercial airliners have HUDs.

If anything, the helicopter needed more avoidance technology from the sounds of it. And that has more to do with the lack of integration the military does with civilian systems.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#250

Post by adolph »

specialist wrote: post #241
adolph wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: > - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. So what happened? Why did the FAA upend a stable hiring process, undercut the CTI schools it had established to train its workforce, and throw the plans of thousands of eager would-be air traffic controllers into disarray? https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...

That was quite the rabbit hole. Thanks for sharing.

One of the interesting aspects is that organizations with strict hiring requirements have to have deep supply chains in order to meet those requirements. Its always interesting to read an account that describes these otherwise unknown-to-me subcultures.
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