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Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

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Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#241

Post by motorest »

grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #212
dlisboa wrote: post #71

Coming from a Latin American the idea of re-starting your life across the country for college and then again for work (multiple times sometimes) while away from family and friends is very foreign. A lot of the conversation around modern American youth feeling isolated, lacking socialization and not building strong relationships seems that stem from this drive. Another thing that’s really weird and related is another…

In Anglo cultures kids aren't usually moving away from home until they are at least ~18 years old. This is not a factor in teenagers feeling isolated. Suburbia and the decline of third places probably play a far greater role in this demographic. It's a common trope on here to lament on how the Anglo cultures don't value family ties strongly enough. I'd argue not overly valuing family ties has been a big competitive a…

> It's a common trope on here to lament on how the Anglo cultures don't value family ties strongly enough. I'd argue not overly valuing family ties has been a big competitive advantage of the Anglo cultures for centuries, eg. moving for opportunity (improved social mobility), ability to connect with outsiders, couple pairing across cultural/geographical boundaries, prerequisite to a high trust society, etc.

That line of reasoning is just plain sad. It boils down to "everyone might be miserable, but someone else is getting rich so it's good."

What makes it specially sad is how anglo culture's economic advantage spawns from the outcome of WW2, not this misplaced sense of sacrifice.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#242

Post by grumpy-de-sre »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #234
grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to blame the decline of organized religion, but it curiously coincides with the same time-frame in which the car was invented and modern suburbia sprung up. Having to move to allow for a family is definitely a new and worrying phenomenon. My gut feel is that having to maintain close family ties and living with parents until adulthood are an adaption to poverty, poor social mobility, and low trust society. P…

I suspect close family ties and living with parents was the default throughout human prehistory. Our Hunter-gatherer ancestors were probably not leaving their tribe behind and moving away. It's only since the industrial revolution that people have been leaving their birth family behind en mass.

I think in any low trust environment where social mobility outside the group is poor, sticking together based on blood lines probably was the default for sure.

However I think there's plenty of evidence that migration and intermingling between tribes occurred frequently. If only as social practices to prevent inbreeding. Probably a bunch of bride kidnapping sadly but also young males leaving to seek opportunity isn't an exclusively modern phenomenon.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#243

Post by Wytwwww »

dsign wrote: post #230
grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Anglo cultures kids aren't usually moving away from home until they are at least ~18 years old. This is not a factor in teenagers feeling isolated. Suburbia and the decline of third places probably play a far greater role in this demographic. It's a common trope on here to lament on how the Anglo cultures don't value family ties strongly enough. I'd argue not overly valuing family ties has been a big competitive a…

> What really needs to happen is we need to figure out ways of facilitating friend formation/maintenance in this brave new world of the internet and atheism. We are going to need some new social technologies to really combat this. I wonder how in your opinion atheism enters in the picture? My first guess (of your reference) is that certain religions frighten people into remaining in a marriage they would otherwise no…

> their children to marry and have kids, so that there are grandchildren to fill those golden years

Which seems to benefit everyone long-term, though (on average/societal scale anyway). I mean what alternatives are you suggesting?

Communes? State run child breeding and education facilities?

If your issue is with monogamy, well that has proven to be the most stable system and seemingly facilitated most of human progress (at least in the more successful societies).

> a lot of young people may choose to stick

You do have a point, it's certainly not necessarily optimal from the individual perspective. Problem is that most alternatives might not be sustainable over several generations so they just die out.

Probably not exactly what you're thinking about but e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#244

Post by motorest »

pas wrote: post #221
grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Anglo cultures kids aren't usually moving away from home until they are at least ~18 years old. This is not a factor in teenagers feeling isolated. Suburbia and the decline of third places probably play a far greater role in this demographic. It's a common trope on here to lament on how the Anglo cultures don't value family ties strongly enough. I'd argue not overly valuing family ties has been a big competitive a…

So, people moving away is not new and not surprising, and happens all over the world, it's basically the main driver of urbanization. What's new was (rich) people moving "back" (to suburbs for the American Dream, and nowadays to have kids). Though it's better than what used to happen - which was lots of kids, and high infant mortality, plus poverty driving kids to find jobs in cities, where bad living conditions and…

> So, people moving away is not new and not surprising, and happens all over the world, it's basically the main driver of urbanization. What's new was (rich) people moving "back" (to suburbs for the American Dream, and nowadays to have kids).

Actually, no. It is a very recent phenomenon, and never experienced before at this scale in the history of mankind.

Even at the current scale, this is what the data shows:

> Nearly six in 10 young adults live within 10 miles of where they grew up, and eight in 10 live within 100 miles, according to a new study by researchers at the U.S. Census Bureau and Harvard University.

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/07/theres-no-pla...

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#245

Post by Wytwwww »

grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #242
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect close family ties and living with parents was the default throughout human prehistory. Our Hunter-gatherer ancestors were probably not leaving their tribe behind and moving away. It's only since the industrial revolution that people have been leaving their birth family behind en mass.

I think in any low trust environment where social mobility outside the group is poor, sticking together based on blood lines probably was the default for sure. However I think there's plenty of evidence that migration and intermingling between tribes occurred frequently. If only as social practices to prevent inbreeding. Probably a bunch of bride kidnapping sadly but also young males leaving to seek opportunity isn't…

> also young males leaving to seek opportunity isn't an exclusively modern phenomenon.

True but as far as we can tell it was usually (if not entirely exclusively) done through the same social networks that existed locally [unless you were leaving to murder/rape/rob people]. Unless they really, really had to you only moved to another city/location because you had a cousin, uncle etc. or someone else there you had some ties with. Outside of organizations like the church or the army (and even then) a complete outsider was at an extreme disadvantage (relative to today).

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#246

Post by Dalewyn »

dsign wrote: post #230
grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Anglo cultures kids aren't usually moving away from home until they are at least ~18 years old. This is not a factor in teenagers feeling isolated. Suburbia and the decline of third places probably play a far greater role in this demographic. It's a common trope on here to lament on how the Anglo cultures don't value family ties strongly enough. I'd argue not overly valuing family ties has been a big competitive a…

> What really needs to happen is we need to figure out ways of facilitating friend formation/maintenance in this brave new world of the internet and atheism. We are going to need some new social technologies to really combat this. I wonder how in your opinion atheism enters in the picture? My first guess (of your reference) is that certain religions frighten people into remaining in a marriage they would otherwise no…

This is going on a tangent, but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s).

I'm Japanese, we (Japan) consider ourselves Non-Religious when we choose to celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, weddings at Christian Churches, and funerals and graves at Buddhist Temples with no dogmatic attachment to any of them as an institution as we go through the motions in life.

There's a healthy enjoyment of Christmas involving cake and Kentucky Fried Chicken in there, too.

Thusly, I always find it interesting/amusing that Atheism is usually positioned as the anti-religion in the West when really it isn't.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#247

Post by brightball »

dlisboa wrote: post #71

Coming from a Latin American the idea of re-starting your life across the country for college and then again for work (multiple times sometimes) while away from family and friends is very foreign. A lot of the conversation around modern American youth feeling isolated, lacking socialization and not building strong relationships seems that stem from this drive. Another thing that’s really weird and related is another…

Agree with this 100%. It’s so much easier to have kids if your parents live nearby to help too.

Root cause is moving for work IMO.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#248

Post by bowsamic »

ustad wrote: post #220
rauljordan2020 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m from latin america. The world is a vast, beautiful place with stunning, clean cities full of opportunity and serendipity. Either I can explore the world and live in these places, or go back to my dangerous, dirty city to spend the rest of my life there because family lives there. Sometimes it isn’t worth the tradeoff

“Though the roads may wind far and wide, And cities gleam with promises bright, The heart will always turn to the soil, Where the roots of our ancestors lie. No matter how distant the dream may be, Home will call, and there we shall be.” – Mariana Ruiz del Valle

It just doesn’t though. That is a feeling specific to her and a few others. It’s not universal at all

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#249

Post by Wytwwww »

DragonStrength wrote: post #233
pjerem wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of Latin Americans you see are migrants because, well, you are in the US. You are only seeing exceptions. The immense majority of Latin American don’t live in the US neither migrate there.

You could say the same about the US-born, so I think you missed my point since you're trying to draw distinctions between the US-born and Latin American-born based on, well, I'm not sure what honestly. Your response is a bit odd, but kind of proves my point about pathologizing the ills of America and romanticizing other cultures, even those which are decidedly "Western" as well.

Statistically the number of Latin American migrants that move to the US yearly is tiny compared to the internal migration and especially to the number of people in Latin America who didn't go anywhere, though. The fact the it's not 100% who don't move doesn't really disprove anything.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#250

Post by lioeters »

ustad wrote: post #220
rauljordan2020 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m from latin america. The world is a vast, beautiful place with stunning, clean cities full of opportunity and serendipity. Either I can explore the world and live in these places, or go back to my dangerous, dirty city to spend the rest of my life there because family lives there. Sometimes it isn’t worth the tradeoff

“Though the roads may wind far and wide, And cities gleam with promises bright, The heart will always turn to the soil, Where the roots of our ancestors lie. No matter how distant the dream may be, Home will call, and there we shall be.” – Mariana Ruiz del Valle

We need a poet who sings about having a "dangerous, dirty city" to call home, and the yearning of the heart is to escape to somewhere better and never returning.
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