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Minimum Wage Clock

moonbase.lgbt

241–250 of 278 posts

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#241
post #79

If we find this appalling, let's stop consuming the products of those who we feel are "overpaid" and visit the website, businessplace, or other endeavors of those we feel are "underpaid". Tim Cook gets paid a lot (and so do many AAPL employees), but I can't help but admit that my last 3 laptops I bought with my own cash were MBP, and not a system76 or framework. And I'm more likely to visit costco than a farmer's mar…

This kind of approach never works except for in the most egregious of situations. Just imagine what the state of car safety would be like if it was purely left up to the market. Regulations work.

Vote with your wallet has never worked. Even the most basic economic principles like supply and demand have been shown to be broken in the last few years. Countless businesses have begun rent-seeking with quarterly price increases, opaque markups hidden until it's time to swipe your card, outright theft from customers and employees, etc. Even if they alienate a few people, there's always more ignorant/stupid people who won't research before they make a purchase and who will go along with whatever is done to them anyway.

And it's compounded with things like housing and food. You can't go without either unless you want to live a completely undignified existence and with a vastly shortened lifespan.

Another example to throw in there is indoor smoking too. People never stopped going out to eat or to bars when you were forced to sit in a thick haze of second hand smoke, and even if you did avoid it there were hundreds of other people who didn't care. I can't imagine how things would be if the push to get rid of it happened in more recent times rather than 20-25 years ago. Red states certainly would have never banned it and there would be droves of people going out intentionally to force you to inhale their second hand smoke to own the libs.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#242
Mimium wages are a blight society. Anyone with an understanding of economics knows this. They harm employees and employers.

Government couldn't negotiate themselves out of a paper bag, why let them say what can be paid?

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#243
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? As a consumer I can choose dinner from either beef from burned amazon rainforest, or a ratatouille made from seasonal local ingredients, or anything in between. I can choose to buy a 2-tonne gas SUV or something smaller. I can choose to participate in “fast fashion”, or choose to buy some of my clothing second-hand. I can choose a vacation by flying to Greece, or hiking the local area, or anywhere in between…

Similarly, there is never any scenario where a union is more effective than individuals each advocating for their own needs, because the organizations people negotiate with always negotiate in good faith, and both sides provide all available information to the other. /s Corporations respond to our actions, certainly. But in the same way (and for the same reason), we respond to corporate actions. You can bet that ever…

I am a union member because I took individual action to become a member. This union would not be as powerful as it is without concerted actions of many individuals.

No single raindrop can cause a flood, but many singular raindrops are required for it to happen.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#244

This site doesn't distinguish pay and not-pay, I think. Sundar Pichai is paid about $8m/year, not $100k/hour. The rest is stock. And even that vests over 3 years[0], not one year. [0] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1652044/000130817923...

That's true, but CEOs (in general) are also in a unique position to create the appearance of value for stockholders through financial engineering, acquisitions, buybacks and so forth. They're able to leverage the resources of the company in unusual ways that don't necessarily have anything to do with operations or direct revenue, including firing other workers to improve the balance sheet. And once they're retired or…

> So in that sense, money is money.

Ye-es, but only if the company is doing well. If the stock collapses, which it can do in a lot of companies, then it's not money. Imagine if Microsoft hadn't pivoted successfully to its new form, or if Google fails to find its footing in a ChatGPT world. Those are big, vital things that need navigating, and they are worth incentivising CEOs for. You might say that the vesting period should be longer, and perhaps that's right, but then other companies will poach them with shorter vesting periods, and the usual market dynamics apply where companies are vying for talent.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the minimum amount required to live peacefully and with dignity. The issue is that there is no such uniform amount. If your spouse makes 85% as much as the two of you need to live with dignity, you don't need to make as much as they do and may prefer not to because the lower-paying job is less difficult or more satisfying. For someone else it could be 95%, or 99%, or 250% and the second job is pure supplemental inc…

You don't have to work full time. Your spouse makes 85% of what you need? Cool, you can work 15% of the amount of time you otherwise would. And for the person getting the training, that still doesn't affect their cost of living. Training isn't cash in hand. I think it's perfectly reasonable to pick a model citizen and work from there. I'd personally target the living expenses for a single person, living in a studio o…

> You don't have to work full time. Your spouse makes 85% of what you need? Cool, you can work 15% of the amount of time you otherwise would.

There aren't enough jobs with that number of hours because companies have per-employee overhead and will choose someone who can work full time over two part-time employees. So then you get stuck with the full time job you hate that pays more than you need instead of the full time job that you enjoy that pays exactly what you need.

Moreover, even if you could find a job working only three hours a day, you're still commuting two hours a day to get there when the lower-paying job was closer, so now you're still spending almost as much time and ending up with even less money because you don't get paid for commuting and you have to pay for transportation.

But you can't end up with less money since that's not enough, so now you have to work more hours. You need the full time job in order to pay for the transportation to get to it. Which means all you've done is add two hours of your own time commuting while trading a job you enjoyed for one you don't.

> And for the person getting the training, that still doesn't affect their cost of living. Training isn't cash in hand.

Schools don't pay cost of living for their students. If you don't have the money you're expected to do some other paid work to come up with it.

The employer offering the training could offer you more paid hours, but that's not going to result in exceeding a minimum wage when averaged in with the negative $/hour training time. Especially if the extra hours are counted as overtime even though they wouldn't be if the employer and the school were separate entities.

> I'd personally target the living expenses for a single person, living in a studio or 1 bedroom apartment, with the expected average commute for the area, and who is generally healthy.

Which is completely arbitrary, since that is neither the average person nor would you want it to be. In fact, people making minimum wage tend to have longer commutes, because they have a low skill level and you prohibited them from trading lower wages for a shorter commute.

It also doesn't make any sense. If you're anyone other than that person, you may not need as much (e.g. you have a roommate or live with parents), so why shouldn't you be able to take a job that you prefer for non-wage reasons over one that pays slightly more? Or on the other side, if this is regarded as necessary (i.e. we're not going to solve the problem in a way that would make this unnecessary, such as a UBI), you'll be screwing over anyone who doesn't qualify for your arbitrarily structured assistance programs. And the assistance programs are frequently poverty traps because overlapping means-tested assistance programs cause their recipients to be subject to excessive marginal tax rates -- sometimes exceeding 100% of their marginal income, not that 50+% is anything reasonable in the alternative.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse; That is simply not true. Money is not an absolut good, but relative. When a few people own a large portion of money, that affords them the power to decide what people do and usually makes their life worse.

By your logic the following argument holds. > Any income differential that results in a power imbalance makes the world worse. And that might be true but I think it misses the point of the argument. Increasing the quality of life for the global poor is much more important than capping Satya's wealth. There's no equivalence here.

This is a question of politics and can not be divorced. Satya's wealth will go down.

Eg. global minimum tax schemes are a promising category og tools to fix this. Indifferently to how you see it, that would decrease somebody's wealth, that they are being taxed on their (foreign) assets.

Increasing quality of life for the poorest people will have to require wealth (and power) redistribution – but that should happen within a framework of fair regulation and fair taxing.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Spirit Level [1] makes a good argument for why more equal societies benefit everyone within them. At the very least, I think it's fair to say that "Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse" is not definitively true. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book)

Even if any singular ultra wealthy person is doing nice things, you'll still have bad actors like the Koch brothers who are actively trying (and succeeding) to subvert our government systems to their own benefit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Ko... Which is why we need governmental solutions, laws, taxes, etc and can't rely on just good will. I havent read the book you recomended, but I wi…

Yet you think government corruption wouldn’t become an equal (or worse) problem?

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse; That is simply not true. Money is not an absolut good, but relative. When a few people own a large portion of money, that affords them the power to decide what people do and usually makes their life worse.

Well except when they have gained such wealth by providing goods or services in an open competitive market which customers have decided to spend their own wealth on. We must assume people spend their wealth on things that make their lives better. Fortunately the people living in the United States of America have a society of laws and have been to bat against the monopolistic tendencies of unfettered capitalism at lea…

Well, surely you also calculate that companies pay the true cost of offering those services? As long as Facebook has not paid for their true use of the internet infrastructure, they have been subsidised by the (public) entities who did pay form them.

Maybe a lot of companies (erhm, platform-companies) use unfair market dynamics that should be regulated to yield a fair market place (Eg. European platform directives)?

For an ideal marketplace it should never be possible to accrue extreme wealth as other providers should swoop in when they discover that there are profit opportunities. If the marketplace does not work like that, then regulation should ensure that we go towards an ideal marketplace.

This is, btw, why all industrialised countries have rules against monopolies.

Ie. extreme wealth inequality is a sign of a dysfunctional capitalistic system.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#249
post #23

People like to talk about inequality but absolute poverty seems like a more important target. Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse; I'm more concerned about the availability of jobs, food, housing, etc. That said, CEO salary does strike me as strange. Who needs 8 million per year + stock? I'd think more CEOs would voluntarily take a pay cut.

Those things are not separate. People with money have influence. You think it’s some mean politician who doesn’t want kids to have school lunches? No it’s wealthy people with grown kids who don’t want it and are able to spend $20k per plate at a dinner to tell their puppet politicians they don’t want it.

And I doubt any of them would take a pay cut.

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