Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#241

Post by dfxm12 » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:52 PM UTC

andsoitis wrote: post #225

lapcat wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, becau…

> Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. Should these not just be regular labor law requirements?

They aren't though. A lot of regular labor law requirements (hours, benefits, safety requirements, etc.) are in place today because of labor unions.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#242

Post by zaphar » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:54 PM UTC

scottiebarnes wrote: post #228

vasco wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do unions help with those? - Do unions enforce remote work? - Do unions enforce an offer letter to turn into actual employment for someone who isn't even a member yet (they haven't signed anything)? - Do unions make people have a better handle on their mental health and do companies with unions have lower rates of burnout in their workforces?

Yeah actually a union can help with all of those things. That's why police are unionized, as well as most team sport elite athletes (players unions). And they like the power it gives them, which is why you never hear them talk badly about it.

While I personally think Police are necessary in a well functioning society, I will argue that Police unions are a large contributing factor behind the poor reputation Police have gotten lately. They have blocked much needed reforms, protected bad eggs, and are an argument for how a Union can force it's participants to support things they find morally repugnant.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#243

Post by ughitsaaron » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

andsoitis wrote: post #225

lapcat wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, becau…

> Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. Should these not just be regular labor law requirements?

Perhaps, but favorable labor legislation often depends on a robust organized labor movement, especially in the United States (where no labor party is present).

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#244

Post by bluGill » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

Unions work best when you have 3 qualities of the job: a feeling that you cannot be better than someone else (that is quality/expertise don't count past a short training period); a uniform wage scale (that is no way to say one person is better than another); and enough skill that you can't be easily replaced.

Note that the above is how they work best. Unions do work in situations lacking some of the above, but because of that lack there is incentive for someone to leave the union and so they have troubles they must address somehow.

The above mostly lifted from https://pedestrianobservations.com/2016/07/16/public-transit...

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Post by zaphar » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

shortrounddev2 wrote: post #226

Jensson wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People voted not to have a union, so apparently democracy doesn't get you what you want, at least in your case.

In most states in the US you are not required to join the union if your workplace votes for it

You don't have to join but you usually still have to pay the dues. So you both have no vote on how that money get's spent but are also forced to give it to them anyway.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Post by runako » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

_aavaa_ wrote: post #222

runako wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 50k of benefits First cut at this would be $23k of pension, plus health insurance. (Average policy for a family of 4 is running around $25k; UPS may have a better plan than average.) It's fair for them to include these because comparable employers do not include either. (Though it make the compare to tech workers less direct.) > almost half of their full-time drivers have been at the company for >15 years There's a…

> It's fair for them to include these because comparable employers do not include either. It is fair, but not under the phrase "UPS workers make". That phrasing usually only refers to (pre- or post-tax) salary. > There's a documented correlation between good benefits, low turnover, and higher profits. I would believe it. All I meant to say is that the 95k average salary will be skewed by having half their full time e…

> I am pushing to keep a clearer distinction between take home pay and total compensation.

I agree, but even this is squishy. For example; pension benefits eventually are taken home by the employee.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#247

Post by pydry » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #133

pydry wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions add the same kind of value whether you're writing a Hollywood screenplay or assembling a Tesla because you have the same relationship to capital either way. The same divide/conquer tactic was done 100 years ago when owners of mines in Pennsylvania pitted white and black miners against each other. The actual distinction doesn't matter to the owners provided it divides labor. Anything that makes you feel special…

Do I have the same relationship to capital? A miner’s relationship to capital seems pretty plausibly adversarial to me: capital buys a bunch of tools and shafts and scaffolding, asks miners to use them to pull coal out of the ground, then pays the miners a fraction of what the coal sells for. My relationship with capital is that rich investors send money to my company’s bank account and they forward it directly to my…

Mines also had investors and they also paid wage bills before the company was profitable. Did you think that they did not?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Post by yunwal » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

infecto wrote: post #64

randy5235 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers, like most workers, are exploited. Do you think that companies pay us well out of the goodness of their hearts? As soon as they can find a way to replace us or pay us less, they will. Currently they have to pay us well and give good benefits, otherwise we will move along to somewhere that will. The more likely scenario, is that they will start replacing the "non 10x" developers with AI soon. This m…

Sounds great to me. That’s how the market works. If a cheaper means of production exists, the industry should utilize it. While I think unlikely right now for it to vanish, it should definitely not be propped up.

Agreed, however, in practice I’ve found that companies replacing humans with AI is usually a disaster, and the only reason they get away with it is because they have some sort of near-monopoly. When’s the last time you got an automated customer support menu on a phone and thought “wow, I’m sure happy they figured out a cheaper means of production here”

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Post by bjornsing » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

pyreticRitual wrote: post #147

nxm wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the terrible developers that are a drain on the company and hence compensation? No thanks

Do terrible NBA players get to keep their jobs? The pithy response is to point at like, James Harden, but on the whole professional basketball is very meritocratic and yet they have a union. Pro sports in general. Netflix said they run their company like a pro sports team, why not include that players have a union?

> Do terrible NBA players get to keep their jobs?

Sports is different because there’s only a certain number of spots on the field. This changes the dynamics and keeps the crab mentality at bay. The same is not true for most workplaces.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#250

Post by zaphar » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:58 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #237

zaphar wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get to pick unions. I get to pick my community support structures. Who I marry, which church,friend group,local community group I join? Those are all voluntary. Unions are not voluntary so they can't really be a community support group in the sense I mean.

Of course you do, you can choose to not take a job with an attached union you don't like. As you said, there are plenty of opportunities out there!

You are correct! But we are discussing why I personally would vote against one at an employer. It would take an otherwise reasonable and enjoyable employer and turn them into a place I no longer want to work.