“Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees • Hacker News Board

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#241

Post by twelve40 » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 9:52 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #99

tarr11 wrote: post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

Even Stanford with its multi-deca Billions in endowment cuts technical staff. They may not call them layoffs but they do cut budgets and headcount. I don’t believe they reduce pay in lieu of headcount. They’re hypocrites! As others pony out, you risk having your best leave, unless they harbor true communist spirit and take one for the team.

ok I really can't speak for the first part, but the more I think about it, the more preferable than the layoffs to me it seems...

* not sure why is this communist spirit, the difference in levels and salaries still remains, but presumably you're not as mad because the cut is by design not targeted at you

* discerning who is a performer and who is not cannot be done instantly, especially if the managers themselves are getting cut (and kept out of these conversations), so even the layoffs end up being random and blind, like the cut. Just read all those linkedin posts from people with 10+ years and recent promos getting booted currently

* if you are really concerned about top performers, double down on bonuses, say next time you're going to get 2x the usual bonus, which will give the company some time to measure performance at a normal pace

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#242

Post by dilyevsky » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

idopmstuff wrote: post #56

tarr11 wrote: post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

I think the problem with this strategy is that it causes the wrong people to leave. If you're a top performer, you're going to feel like a 10% pay cut is very unfair, and you're going to be able to get another job elsewhere fairly easily, even in this environment. If you're not performing particularly well, it probably doesn't feel as unreasonable, and even if you don't like it, it's tough to leave. When done correct…

In case of google and other faangs this was easily achieved by just not giving annual bonuses that are 10-20% and are explicitly not guaranteed. For top performers you can still give bonuses just not as large

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#243

Post by sitkack » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 10:03 PM UTC

adrianmonk wrote: post #240

tarr11 wrote: post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

> Seems like it would also increase stress and encourage top performers to seek new opportunities. There's a third route: cut hours. Everybody gets every other Friday off, and with that 10% reduction in hours, they get a 10% reduction in pay. It doesn't solve everything, but reduces the feeling of unfairness because your per-hour rate stays the same. (Provided you cancel less-important projects, etc. so that people a…

This.

Profit per employee is still high. Revenue per employee hired might be lower after the hiring spree, but the total revenue is still higher. Pay that back w/o culling the herd.

The other option is forming a coop like Igalia or moving to a democratically run organization. I say this not not to stoke a needless discussion, but corporations are fascist cabals. Employees are tools that are on the out-group and nothing more.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#244

Post by Yoric » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 10:04 PM UTC

escapecharacter wrote: post #119

in_cahoots wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where would you go in this environment? Most of the top-name companies have had layoffs themselves, or at the very least are at the hiring freeze stage of the layoff routine.

In my case, I did the math on my savings and I’m taking 1-3 years working on side projects, by myself and with groups of collaborators

I have that kind of cushion and I am considering taking a few months off working on side projects. But 1-3 years? I would need a very, very, very solid project to consider doing that!

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#245

Post by chkhd » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 10:04 PM UTC

All these layoffs to me personally seem just an accelerated and highly opportunistic cull of people in the bottom of stack ranking.

Of course they still do it, of course they will use this golden opportunity to improve what they think of as "health" of the organization.

Yes, they probably overhired during the pandemic, but people laid off will not necessarily be the same ones.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#246

Post by poszlem » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 10:09 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #22

sovnwnt wrote: post #14

> instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of the pain. This doesn't seem like a good strategy for tech. Cutting everyone's salary will dislodge your top performers who can get a better position even in poor market conditions.

Will it? Most of the top performers I know are not very motivated by money, and instead value doing interesting work with people they like. Granted, there are a set of people who are very good at job-hopping while executing a performance of being a top performer. But maybe a company will do just fine those people hop away. Maybe it would do better.

I am not motivated by money. That's why I am not looking for another, better paying job. But I will if you take from me what I already earn.

Advice to reduce the wages of all individuals is disconnected from reality and likely originates from someone who is insulated from the practical implications of such a decision, such as those in an academic setting.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#247

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 10:15 PM UTC

idopmstuff wrote: post #56

tarr11 wrote: post #31

The professor recommends across the board pay cuts as an alternative to layoffs. > One thing that Lincoln Electric, which is a famous manufacturer of arc welding equipment, did well is instead of laying off 10% of their workforce, they had everybody take a 10% wage cut except for senior management, which took a larger cut. So instead of giving 100% of the pain to 10% of the people, they give 100% of the people 10% of…

I think the problem with this strategy is that it causes the wrong people to leave. If you're a top performer, you're going to feel like a 10% pay cut is very unfair, and you're going to be able to get another job elsewhere fairly easily, even in this environment. If you're not performing particularly well, it probably doesn't feel as unreasonable, and even if you don't like it, it's tough to leave. When done correct…

Large scale lay offs are generally done blind to avoid accusations of bias: they don’t lay off low performers, they use some other fixed criteria (like laying off teams, people under X tenure, etc…).

Performance based layoffs have to be well documented and take lots of time, so they just happen continuously but in small numbers. At least, that is how it seems to me.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#248

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 10:16 PM UTC

idopmstuff wrote: post #150

blagie wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having seen both, I'm much more likely to leave /after/ a layoff than after a 10% paycut. In abstract, if there were a way to rank employees by ROI and contribution perfectly fairly, I might not worry about layoffs personally. However: 1) In my career, I've never seen layoffs which were at all good at selecting the bottom 10%. Who gets dropped is pretty random. 2) I care about other people I work with. A 10% layoff m…

> 1) In my career, I've never seen layoffs which were at all good at selecting the bottom 10%. Who gets dropped is pretty random. This is very true, and I would say definitely the biggest weakness of my point. In a theoretical world in which you can drop the bottom 10% of performers, I think that's clearly the right thing to do, but obviously practice is not the same as theory. I will say the one other thing about 10…

What tech companies are even doing dividends anymore? I guess Microsoft has a small one?

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#249

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 10:20 PM UTC

as-j wrote: post #179

in_cahoots wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where would you go in this environment? Most of the top-name companies have had layoffs themselves, or at the very least are at the hiring freeze stage of the layoff routine.

You’ll laugh but bear with me, Meta recruiter just reached out to me this week, so even parts of Facebook are hiring, and my relevant skill set. Of course I don’t care about VR goggles, but you just had large layoffs, why would I work for you? (Plus ok Zuck is ruining your core business, but that aside) Layoffs hurt inside and outside too.

If meta is hiring for VR, they are probably taking advantage of the recent Microsoft layoff anyways to pick up talent.

Re: “Copycat” layoffs won’t help tech companies or their employees

#250

Post by mc32 » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 10:26 PM UTC

twelve40 wrote: post #241

mc32 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Stanford with its multi-deca Billions in endowment cuts technical staff. They may not call them layoffs but they do cut budgets and headcount. I don’t believe they reduce pay in lieu of headcount. They’re hypocrites! As others pony out, you risk having your best leave, unless they harbor true communist spirit and take one for the team.

ok I really can't speak for the first part, but the more I think about it, the more preferable than the layoffs to me it seems... * not sure why is this communist spirit, the difference in levels and salaries still remains, but presumably you're not as mad because the cut is by design not targeted at you * discerning who is a performer and who is not cannot be done instantly, especially if the managers themselves are…

In a harmonious and fair world where moochers don’t exist and people are reasonable yes I think ideally an even shave seems fair (communists kind of do this) however in practice I’m not aware of unions pushing back on furloughs or layoffs and preferring all members getting an equal cut back on wages. There are probably exceptions but by and large even unions don’t make this choice for their members.