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Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

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Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#241

Post by teekert »

Jenk wrote: post #194
compsciphd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to defend snap with the idea that it makes sense for some apps, i.e. "firefox" where updating firefox while its running is bad news. Except, snap can't update applications while they are running! i.e. try to do a snap refresh while firefox is running, nothing to update, because its running, quit it wait for all processes to die and then refresh, and it will update and cause you to wait 30-60s while it does it,…

Polite FYI: When a statement has many examples it is correct to use "e.g.," which is an abbreviation of _exempli gratia_, which in turn is Latin for "for example." For example: There are many emotions a person may feel, e.g., happiness. When a statement has only one logical conclusion it is correct to use "i.e.," which is the abbreviation of _id est_ which in turn is Latin for "that is." For example: It was the same…

Til, thanx.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#242

Post by codalan »

harel wrote: post #152

For the last year+ I've been thinking of moving from Ubuntu (after 17 years) and into Manjaro (arch). I even have it running on another older laptop and it's great. However, the fear of losing pace, even for a day because an unforeseen problem or missing something stops me. Ubuntu has always (mostly) just worked for me, and I know Manjaro will too but after so many years change is somewhat hard...

I switched over to Linux Mint recently. There's no way I'm going back to plain old Ubuntu anytime soon.

Cinnamon just works for me, and I still have apt to manage my packages.

It's kind of the logical next step for dissatisfied Ubuntu users.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#243

Post by gunapologist99 »

I still run Ubuntu (actually Kubuntu) on one of my XPS laptops, where it actually runs great, but I'm slowly switching over to Void for my desktop/laptops, which I've been running on my servers for years; it does take more time to install (especially with RAID) but is so much nicer and simpler to deal with once installed (without systemd or snaps).

Void is kinda like what Debian used to be -- rough around the edges but really a great distribution once it's up and running.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#244

Post by elgenie »

Jenk wrote: post #194
compsciphd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to defend snap with the idea that it makes sense for some apps, i.e. "firefox" where updating firefox while its running is bad news. Except, snap can't update applications while they are running! i.e. try to do a snap refresh while firefox is running, nothing to update, because its running, quit it wait for all processes to die and then refresh, and it will update and cause you to wait 30-60s while it does it,…

Polite FYI: When a statement has many examples it is correct to use "e.g.," which is an abbreviation of _exempli gratia_, which in turn is Latin for "for example." For example: There are many emotions a person may feel, e.g., happiness. When a statement has only one logical conclusion it is correct to use "i.e.," which is the abbreviation of _id est_ which in turn is Latin for "that is." For example: It was the same…

My mnemonic is "i.e." = "in essence" and "e.g." = "example given". The real phrases being abbreviated are, of course, the Latin ones.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#245

Post by gunapologist99 »

suprjami wrote: post #215
derefr wrote: post #211

Lot of people here with opinions about using Ubuntu as a desktop OS. Seemingly nobody here with opinions about Ubuntu as a server OS. Strange for a bunch of startup people who ship their SaaS backends on Linux servers.

I have a couple of personal servers I run on Ubuntu. I've used Alpine before and it's fine, but I want proper bash and full tools which is tedious to setup, and it doesn't do release upgrades automatically. Sometimes they make major changes like sudo-to-doas. Alpine needs a better versioning system and a release upgrader. I've also run Debian and found it unpolished and unreliable. For no reason whatsoever package up…

FWIW, Void is like a bigger version of Alpine; they even both have musl versions. (Interestingly, I've always found Debian quite reliable but agree that it definitely lacks the polish that Ubuntu provides.)

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#246

Post by gunapologist99 »

harel wrote: post #152

For the last year+ I've been thinking of moving from Ubuntu (after 17 years) and into Manjaro (arch). I even have it running on another older laptop and it's great. However, the fear of losing pace, even for a day because an unforeseen problem or missing something stops me. Ubuntu has always (mostly) just worked for me, and I know Manjaro will too but after so many years change is somewhat hard...

I liked Manjaro and Artix, but eventually the package databases somehow got confused and I couldn't upgrade them anymore without deleting files. However, Manjaro especially looks fantastic, and Artix doesn't come with systemd, which is a win..

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#247

Post by kzrdude »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #183
kzrdude wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The package repository should be the off-the-shelf items in the grocery store, while installing separately is the big-ticket and custom made items. Installing apps separately doesn't scale very well, but it makes sense to just do it for firefox and certain others. IMO.

Firefox is "big ticket", but not "custom made"; one firefox package or installer should suit everybody fine. I think package managers can do very well with Firefox if the package is managed well.

It's the user's choice how to install Firefox for sure. The opa works fine on ubuntu

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#248

Post by seiferteric »

echelon wrote: post #190
thomaslord wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox is a particularly interesting case because it has a bunch of issues that only exist when it's installed via snap. I just recently ripped out the default snap version and installed via the official PPA, and Firefox seems to be running much smoother now. For basically any app I use that's installed via snap, I eventually run into a gamebreaking issue and have to remove the snap version and find a normal .deb to…

Snap makes sense, but it'll take time for the dust to settle. Just like Unity / Wayland. Applications like Firefox, IntelliJ, Chromium, etc. shouldn't be tied to system dependencies managed by apt. They should be entirely monolithic and hermetic. Long term this deb vs snap approach will make sense and be good for Desktop Linux.

Actually brings up a good question of why can't dpkg/.deb just support having multiple library versions? My understanding is that it is not support, but if it was, then couldn't that obviate the need for snap?

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#249

Post by yakubin »

brnt wrote: post #75
aliqot wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by saying Debian rolling release is the truth. That being said, I worry about the archaic community and contributor-tooling behind debian to be a barrier that will lead to its demise though. Makes me sad, but it is what it is. We are all getting old, and to us this interface looks normal, but to new people and those making the apps that the kids depend on, it looks like a shitshow of antiquated code. Nob…

I've also heard criticism of .deb being much more cumbersome than .rpm. Fedora is not my first choice, Debian is, but they are more new-dev friendly. Maybe Debian needs to port itself to use rpms and Fedora tooling.

Debs are very easy to make and their structure is easy to understand for anyone who's been using Linux for at least a couple months. They're just tarballs with a couple special text files. What's hard is Debian's official tools to make debs, which are geared towards people who want to become maintainers of packages in official Debian repos. If you don't aim to become one, there are third-party tools which make it easy, such as cargo-deb or holo-build. If you don't want to use them, you may also even write a shell script which will produce a good package. Just use lintian to double-check whether everything is alright.

RPM on the other hand is an over-engineered mess: https://xyrillian.de/thoughts/posts/argh-pm.html>. Tangentially, YUM and DNF were the slowest package managers I've ever used. They're a real pain.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#250

Post by josephg »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #183
kzrdude wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The package repository should be the off-the-shelf items in the grocery store, while installing separately is the big-ticket and custom made items. Installing apps separately doesn't scale very well, but it makes sense to just do it for firefox and certain others. IMO.

Firefox is "big ticket", but not "custom made"; one firefox package or installer should suit everybody fine. I think package managers can do very well with Firefox if the package is managed well.

Exactly. I use Linux mint (without snaps) and Firefox works great. It updates pretty frequently through mint’s software update tool, which is just running apt and installing package updates.

All this talk of snaps and using PPAs sounds like a an unnecessary headache. What’s the point of a package manager if it doesn’t keep your packages up to date?

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