Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

news.ycombinator.com

241–250 of 506 posts

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#241

This is really incredible. You are on one end of the spectrum by being hardworking and motivated, while I on the other end of the spectrum by being lazy and unmotivated. While both being misjudged. I started last year, and since then I was constantly late to work, left home early, and always complained about design, tasks and so on. Took ages to understand code written by others and just thought it's over-engineered…

,, thought it's over-engineered’’

Every code in the world is over-engeneered, as it’s a living thing changed by many people whose only goal is to not introduce new bugs while introducing a new feature. Removing code is hard, because it requires a deep understanding of the system. The best software engineers I know are the best people who can improve messy code substantially with the minimum amount of changes.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#242

Time to start looking for the next gig. That boss is unsuitable for management. Lacking emotional intelligence, willingness to mentor, and so forth. I've never successfully managed upwards, never have been able to turn situations like yours around. I've had jobs that I really liked, so tried really hard to make things work. It was never worthwhile. I always regretted the effort. The good bosses I've had made all the…

"Managing up" exists for people who want to remain in a company long term and typically found in large organizations with bad managers. When the job market is bad, it is worth the effort. In this job market? I'd be gone in a heartbeat.

Large organizations have bad and great managers, so the best thing is to change team if there’s a problem with the manager in a good company.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#243
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So i work with this person that is really slow. She should have accomplished a task in 2-4 weeks and it took her 6 months. We gave her 3 months to accomplish it. So at some point you do need to point out that a task should not have v taken as long as it did and ask the person why it did. Was there some sort of unknown issue that caused the task to take 4x longer than expected

(1) I don't think you can reliably say after the first suck project. Some people are a bit slow at picking up new things, but become very productive after a while. (2) Others pick things up super quickly, but never become super productive as the first group. And of course lots of variations of people that don't fit neatly into either group. I am in group (2) I think, but in my experience you really want people that b…

Salman Khan talks about this a little. He said one of the things they learned from the Khan Academy is that you can sort of group everyone into either "convex" or "concave" learners and they all basically get to the same level of competence by time T, and it's more a matter of do they plateau at the beginning or at the end.

He seems to be very careful about placing value judgements on which is "better", and he's also very careful to crop the graph near time T. His big push is to make sure that teachers understand that people that are categorized as "slow learners" actually often take just as long to get to the same level of proficiency as "fast learners".

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#244
Early career devs need to accumulate a few things, roughly in this order of importance: - projects where you made a key contribution, where you "owned" something - senior people who will be mentors / boosters - a portfolio of skills, technologies, domain areas, engineering practices, soft skills - maybe a fancy name? A FAANG or a startup that hits big.

It sounds like you're getting a couple of these. Jobs that hit all these points at once don't grow on trees. But, always have your feelers out. Keep in touch with former colleagues and schoolmates.

Don't assume that senior people know what they're doing. They've probably been promoted to a role in which they're just trying to figure it out. It sounds like your manager and her boss are struggling. Have empathy, but don't get stuck paying for their mistakes. Managing up is a skill. I wish I had it.

Expect requirements to change. They usually do. You can't beat direct contact with end-users and rapid iteration based on their feedback. Serving real users is fun and even the most clueless and back-stabbing of bosses will respect it.

- Don't assume management cares about your best interest. Some will. Most won't. - Don't think you can change a dysfunctional org from below. You can't. - Don't beat yourself up. Look for lessons and keep on keepin' on. - Don't stay in a bad situation. Everybody's hiring.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#245

> Part of the reason it had taken so long is because I put a substantial amount of work into a part of the project that's no longer necessary due to changing requirements, which I don't think I could have forseen. One of the things that I've experienced with new grad junior devs is that there's an adjustment needed to change from academic working to business working. In academia, usually the professor gives an assign…

Wow - this is the best advice on HN (top comment to while I write) in a while.

For junior folks I REPEATEDLY say, if you find yourself getting stuck / slowing down touch base. Or keep me in the loop, let's check in regularly when you have a good moment to chat, I'd love to hear how its going.

Here's the other thing I noticed. I work with someone who is is my peer. Ie, 15 years+ experience etc. THEY check in with me proactively 5x as much as the folks who really need to be checking in.

I also like that they don't schedule a call, they just zoom me. I know this seems rude, but it actually saves time. If I'm busy I don't answer, but usually I can. This is a personal preference. For junior folks if you schedule some time for early next day that works well (my calendar auto-accepts).

Also, not end of world to socialize / connect with 1-2 other devs below your managers level to share tips / get help, just be sure to pass it on to the next FNG.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#246

The first thing you should do is go to your direct manager and discuss the feedback you got. See if they feel the same way. One of three things is happening. Either your boss went off on you without communicating with your direct supervisor.(unlikely) Or your direct supervisor feels this way and is too chickenshit to them yourself. Or they are throwing you under the bus. The second thing you should take into account…

> Either your boss went off on you without communicating with your direct supervisor.(unlikely)

I think whether this is unlikely depends on the boss. I've worked under higher level bosses who would say lots of things in the spur of the moment in a meeting that they would have forgotten ten minutes after the meeting ended, and which certainly would not have led to any longer term consequences. They were just venting at whoever happened to be present. I agree this is not an ideal communication style, but that doesn't mean it's not out there. As a newbie in the organization, I would be asking for feedback from coworkers about the higher level boss's communication style.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#247
In your very long forthcoming career you will find very few moments of clarity. Take it from a veteran of this industry - take it easy , have fun , keep the focus on being productive and objective. You cannot control much more than that and there are always many forces at work which you might not even have an idea about. So relax and don’t take it too personally. Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#248
> How should I proceed?

Well I can tell you one thing for certain: this won't matter in a year... no matter what. Congratulations on making it into the field of software development with what I assume is a bachelors in computer science. You're basically set for the next ten years at least, guaranteed. There are so many vacancies in this field.

I've had petty bosses like this. Personally or professionally, I'd never talk to a junior developer like this. Or a senior developer for that matter. A senior dev and I would have had so many check ins and conversations before this meeting you had that it would be impossible for such a meeting to happen. Bosses like your boss' boss love to focus on the timeline without any of the details. For this, they are worse than worthless in their occupation. It seems likely your manager's manager failed to address a changing requirement in time, got burned by their superior for it, scared your manager away with their rage, and took it upon themselves to take it out on you. Again, just my intuition but it's rarely wrong. I've been doing this for a long time and I've worked at every type of company imaginable from govt to startup to corporate.

You probably graduated last May/June so you'll be up on your year soon (again, a guess). I'd start looking for other opportunities as you'll almost be guaranteed a 20%+ raise changing jobs and zero negative consequences for doing so. If you choose to stay here, great, but regardless, it will make you feel better to see higher offers from other places where you'll likely meet great people who can mentor you properly, proactively, and with enthusiasm. What your manager is doing is called seagull management, it's a little graphic of a term but look it up ;) It's a contribution to a company that my software engineering professor would call "worse than worthless".

I've had a few jobs with know-nothing bosses. It's a nightmare and leaves you feeling bad about your diligent and hard work. If everything was going well with zero constructive or negative feedback, and all of a sudden, there's a problem and a big problem at that, where the blame is placed on you without any sort of detailed explanation or further indication, it's a sign there's something wrong up the chain that has nothing to do with you. Pathetic, petty managers will always try to blame their subordinates for their own failures.

I would never let one of my junior devs with their first job out of college take the fall for a deadline or give them feedback like this because I possess the seemingly rare quality of empathy in software development and know it would be one of the biggest contributions of negative value to the company to do so. I would instead take responsibility for my failure to handle a deadline as that's what a real lead dev does. And if my junior dev was given too much work I'd help them or do it myself.

You can of course always look at other code in the company to see if something has been done. So can your boss. Given that those two have more experience with this field than you do, both at this company and in general (allegedly at least) it is something they should have proactively taken upon themselves, ideally in cooperation with you long before this meeting. They also have a duty to communicate with and mentor junior devs. You're not a senior lead with years of experience, you're a recent graduate with an invaluable set of skills and understanding of computational science that you developed over a period of years. You need a little bit of mentoring to learn the ins and outs of the business world in the context of your rare and precious talent. That should be done warmly and with great enthusiasm from your mentors. This is often not the case. For me it is far and away the most satisfying part of my job to mentor juniors who want to learn. Unfortunately, you're going to have to work a little to seek out likeminded people, they're not in every company. If any one of the people that ever worked under me blamed a dev for their poor project management skills they'd get quite an earful from me, I assure you. I'd fire a repeat offender who needlessly destroys the morale and enthusiasm of anyone without hesitation.

I felt obligated to reply at length because a lot of the comments in this thread are giving you terrible advice. I dealt with horrible support systems early on in my career and got so much terrible advice from other engineers. Lack of empathy and humanity is a massive problem in our community. You clearly have a desire to do good and are sensitive to feedback and I can't help but feel that your talent and good nature is being wasted here. Never forget you are the talent. Without yourself and the other developers producing software your manager would not have a thing to manage. I think you needed to hear that today. Repeat after me: I am the talent. You need me, I don't need you.

Please stay positive. As the Brits say, keep calm and carry on. It's all you can do here. Do that and keep your passion and you're indestructible. It's a hard thing to realize that so many people have no idea what they're doing but this ordeal you've been through will be helpful education in that respect!

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#249
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this comment became somewhat popular I'll post the entire guide here. I wrote this a while ago for someone else. It summarises some of my own struggles after being let go from a company I cared for deeply. Not all companies and bosses are the same, but even well intentioned people can have some of these traits depending on the situation. The end goal is to have a good work/life balance and not work yourself to…

You have a lot of cautionary advice here which would be good for people to have awareness, but I have to say it comes across as very confrontational advice rooted in an us vs them culture that may be very much influenced by where you worked and what you went through. I'm sure these are all learned defense mechanisms but I'd beware of this way of living life. Sure you can hypothetically get in trouble later if you sha…

> You have a lot of cautionary advice here which would be good for people to have awareness, but I have to say it comes across as very confrontational advice rooted in an us vs them culture that may be very much influenced by where you worked and what you went through.

Yup, but I think OP's advice should be the baseline from which you relax these things as you learn that level of caution is not warranted.

The business world as a whole has a bad enough reputation in regards to individuals that caution is the correct tact to start with.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#250
Wanted to write a lengthly response to this since I think I have some perspectives that might help, but wife doesn’t like it when I spend the night writing when I should be in bed. :-)

Tell you what though: I’d be happy to do a video chat with you. I might learn something. Drop me a line if you’re interested.

Post reply on HN