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Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

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Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#241

Post by subpixel »

cphoover wrote: post #231
RoboticWater wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the use cases I deal with on a regular basis, Svelte looks more like vanilla HTML/JS than any equivalent React code. And the reason these things change is because that's what needed changing . One of the topline features of Svelte is that is has less boilerplate than React, and it achieves that quite handily. Unless you're criticizing particular constructs in Svelte that are unjustifiably different, I don't t…

What how can you say that??? {myItems.map({id, title}) => {title} } vs... svelte {#each myItems as item} {item.title} {/each} One is literally just javascript and html the other is an entirely different template language. You might say... JSX is not HTML... well it's very very similar... If you know HTML you JSX is very intuitive.

I grant that it isn't Javascript and you have to get familiar with it. But at least it's not Hugo templating.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#242

Post by ramesh31 »

d23 wrote: post #186
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

As a backend guy who moved away from frontend long ago for these very reasons, I have to ask: why are people downvoting this? Is it wrong? I'm genuinely asking, because from a bystander's point of view, it certainly seems like the pattern of the Framework Du Jour hasn't really slowed down much in the frontend community.

> I'm genuinely asking, because from a bystander's point of view, it certainly seems like the pattern of the Framework Du Jour hasn't really slowed down much in the frontend community.

Perhaps not in the "frontend community", no it hasn't slowed down. There will always be new frameworks coming and going, and people will work on them as fun open source projects or use them in their side projects or whatever. But people doing real work are almost unanimously settled upon React as an industry standard at this point. There's still a decent sized faction of contrarian Vue holdouts, but by and large the JS framework wars are over.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#243

Post by miguel-muniz »

The5thElephant wrote: post #50
dexwiz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you work with a designer? I’m convinced most of the push for JS apps as pages is mostly perpetuated by designers who don’t know how the DOM works and feel the need to redesign the wheel on every project. I work within a company that provides a design system and a platform of hundreds of generic component, but individual designers still always want to push their particular vision. I think if most designers took exi…

Product designer and HTML/CSS person here, and in my experience it is the opposite. Designers and front-end focused people wh get a chance to work with Vue love it because it actually respects basic HTML/CSS/JS and doesn't encourage doing everything in JS, unlike React which basically forces your hand. This makes working in Vue (and Svelte) so much more accessible to people who are great at HTML and CSS but not JS as…

> Fortunately a new generation of design tools are coming that are built on HTML/CSS renderers

These days I spend more time in browser devtools than Figma, and honestly I'd prefer a more visual way to edit code directly. Something like Webflow but without all the cruft behind it. Preferably built into devtools, maybe as an extension

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#244

Post by FractalHQ »

tekkk wrote: post #29

Wow, this should be great news for Svelte and SvelteKit! Hopefully with Vercel's backing these projects will fly off. Having worked with React for about 5 years (with a project in Vue in-between) and now having dabbled with Svelte, there is just something more appealing working with less higher-level abstractions. Sure with large apps React does have its benefits and its ecosystem is larger by a good amount. But ther…

> ecosystem is larger by a good amount.

Svelte’s ecosystem is, in practice, actually much larger than React and any other framework because Vanilla JS works out of the box without framework specific wrappers. So just about any JavaScript package can be imported into a Svelte file and used without hassle.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#245

Post by dmitriid »

spoils19 wrote: post #214
SparkyMcUnicorn wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote, but I'll speak to my experience. First off, you don't have to go learning every framework out there. Pick one and stick with it, or just go vanilla. That said, The features these frameworks provide gives a boost in productivity that far outweighs the low learning curve. My pick was VueJS and I'm very happy with it. Using Single File Components is pretty similar to vanilla HTML/JS/CSS. Beginners tha…

Frontend developers like to change frameworks every week it seems like, so it's in my best interest to learn every framework (or at least some abstracted part of it) in order to stay employable and up-to-date. The problem is that each framework has their own abstraction and language that you have to learn. Compare it to "old-school" Java frameworks, where things were much simpler and you didn't have to worry about eg…

> Frontend developers like to change frameworks every week

React is 8 years old

Vue is 8 years old

Svelte is the relative newcomer, at 4 years (and the major third version at ~2 years).

The idea of "frameworks are changing every week" hasn't been true in a very long time

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#246

Post by kall »

WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #39

Cloudflare will regret not having a developer go-to framework for their advanced Worker stuff one day. I think they are waiting for someone else to build for it which is IMO the completely wrong approach for the dream of the serverless app. You got to own the full stack including software. I can easily see Vercel becoming the pretty much only go-to in this space just from the developer trust they have created with Ne…

Yes! To compete, cloudflare really needs a nicer "full-stack" experience where you have one repo, one config file, one CLI and one codebase that is shipped automatically into pages and however many workers, dns rules, kv stores, durable objects, Images and Stream deployments etc. They have Wrangler but it doesn‘t really feel "complete". At least they should rename it to cloudflare-cli and cloudflare.toml.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#247

Post by DonHopkins »

makeramen wrote: post #237
cphoover wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What how can you say that??? {myItems.map({id, title}) => {title} } vs... svelte {#each myItems as item} {item.title} {/each} One is literally just javascript and html the other is an entirely different template language. You might say... JSX is not HTML... well it's very very similar... If you know HTML you JSX is very intuitive.

> If you know HTML you JSX is very intuitive. That's a poor assumption that appears to be based on your personal preferences and what you're comfortable with. I personally find both require some learning, but prefer the svelte version.

And JSX isn't JavaScript and it isn't HTML, and if you know JavaScript and HTML you still don't know JSX, so you're still using "yet another language" in addition to JavaScript and HTML.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#248

Post by nnoitra »

RoboticWater wrote: post #196
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

For all the use cases I deal with on a regular basis, Svelte looks more like vanilla HTML/JS than any equivalent React code. And the reason these things change is because that's what needed changing . One of the topline features of Svelte is that is has less boilerplate than React, and it achieves that quite handily. Unless you're criticizing particular constructs in Svelte that are unjustifiably different, I don't t…

What boilerplate does React have? Do you mean Babel?

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#249

Post by tropix126 »

solarmist wrote: post #193
tropix126 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Yes there is typescript support. 2. Compared to React yes, because Svelte ships no runtime (or at least a very minimal one). There is a curve though, and very large apps (in the hundreds of components) will eventually be overtaken by something like Preact or vue. 3. No runtime means no restrictions on what they include in the framework. They take full advantage of Svelte being a compiler and include things like co…

> They take full advantage of Svelte being... They? Libraries?

The Svelte core team. All of the features I mentioned are included in the framework without the need of external libs.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#250

Post by alvarlagerlof »

DonHopkins wrote: post #247
makeramen wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you know HTML you JSX is very intuitive. That's a poor assumption that appears to be based on your personal preferences and what you're comfortable with. I personally find both require some learning, but prefer the svelte version.

And JSX isn't JavaScript and it isn't HTML, and if you know JavaScript and HTML you still don't know JSX, so you're still using "yet another language" in addition to JavaScript and HTML.

At least it's pretty much only built up of J's and html instead of something entirely different.
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