Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown • Hacker News Board

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#241

Post by ghaff » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #217

ghaff wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is one reason I come back to thinking that you may see full automation in environments such as limited access highways in good weather but likely not in, say, Manhattan into the indefinite future. Unexpected things can happen on highways but a lot fewer of them and it's not like humans driving 70 mph are great at avoiding that unexpected deer or erratic driver either. ADDED: You'd actually think the manufacture…

This is what I'd be happy with. Something to get me the 20-50 miles between cities (Atlanta Winder Athens in particular), or through the closed highway loops around them. Driving within them isn't so boring that my focus wanders before I notice it's wandering. We could just expand MARTA, but the NIMBY crowd won't allow it. People are still hopped up on 1980s fearmongering about the sorts of people who live in cities…

Public transit isn't a panacea for suburbs/small cities. I'm about a 7 minute drive from the commuter rail into Boston but because of both schedule and time to take a non-express train, it's pretty much impractical to take into the city except for a 9-5 workday schedule, especially if I need to take a subway once I get into town.

For me, it's more the 3-5 hour drive, mostly on highways, to get up to northern New England.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#242

Post by ra7 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

Geee wrote: post #224

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

Tesla's system is real time, which means that it makes routing decisions on every frame, and the decisions are independent from previous decisions. It doesn't have memory. It just makes decisions based on what it actually sees with its cameras. It doesn't trust maps, like most other systems. For some reason, it thinks that it must turn right. Situations like these are sent to Tesla to be analyzed, the corresponding d…

> It doesn't have memory. It just makes decisions based on what it actually sees with its cameras. It doesn't trust maps, like most other systems.

This is incorrect. Tesla also relies on maps for traffic signs, intersections, stop signs etc. They just don't have additional details like the others do.

> After this situation is fixed, there will be an another edge case that the HN crowd panics over.

Is anything Tesla FSD can't handle an "edge case" now? It's literally an everyday driving scenario.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#243

Post by FartyMcFarter » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

gpm wrote: post #228

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is the student driver will learn within a few more dozen hours and be fit for the road, Tesla no silver lining on the horizon.

You have it backwards. With humans driving there is a constant and unending stream of student drivers, because every new human must learn from scratch. There is no silver lining. With self driving it takes longer for the one individual to learn, but the difference is that there is only the one individual, and it need not ever die. The learning is transferable between cars, regressions between generations need not be…

That sounds great in theory, but in practice the technology is not there for reliable and demonstrable learning of that type.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#244

Post by misiti3780 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #223

cronix wrote: post #159

I think the whole dream/goal of building a self driving car on top of a system completely designed for manual human interpretation and input is asinine, and that's before you even consider the complexity of adding other humans manually driving or suddenly walking in front of your car from a blind spot. Instead of building a digital system from the ground up, we are forcing manufacturers to come up with tech to read s…

>> What if it's covered in mud, or snow? That's the entire problem. These systems don't understand anything about the world. If you see a sign covered in snow you're going to recognize it as such and make your best guess as to what it says and weather you care. You probably don't need that information to drive safely because you have a lot of knowledge to fall back on. These things dont, so some folks want to improve…

Right now, the TSLAs with FSD will disable it in snow+rain, so I assume that even if TSLA achieves L4, it will be only under ideal conditions until they have enough data to resolve these edge cases.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#245

Post by Draiken » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

refulgentis wrote: post #122

misiti3780 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - but do you think if they did that the haters would stop hating ?

Assuming by hater you mean "someone who is scared by Full Self Driving including cars veering into pedestrians", it'd help me: I'm in an urban area and don't have a car, and I'd be lying if I claimed I wasn't always scared when I see a Tesla approach when I'm in a crosswalk, I'm never sure if Full Self Driving is on or not.

The problem is that you could apply that argument for a drunk driver, a distressed driver, a driver without a license, a driver that hasn't slept enough, etc.

Any of those could mean a car could randomly turn into the crosswalk.

Humans are horrible at assessing risk. We worry about Teslas because it's on the headlines now, but you're infinitely more likely to get ran over by one of the cited examples than a Tesla just by sheer statistics.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#246

Post by sleepybrett » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #124

tzs wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Washington, where the video was recorded, the rule is that you must stop and remain stopped as long as there are pedestrians in the crosswalk in in your half of the roadway or within one lane of your half of the roadway. "Half of the roadway" is defined as all traffic lanes carrying traffic in one direction. In the case of a one-way road such as the one in the video "half of the roadway" is the whole road. In your…

It is interesting how different the law is from behavior. Walking through Seattle, I would not expect that this was the law considering how often people will cross in front of and behind you (both of which I’m fine with).

It's true that there are laws and enforcement, but an automated system needs to obey the laws. Anything else is a judgement and machines shouldn't be making judgements when lives are on the line.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#247

Post by zaptrem » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

antattack wrote: post #128

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

Looking at the video Tesla was probably not closer than 25 feet from any pedestrians. If pedestrians were closer I think their proximity would make the car stop as in other videos. As to abrupt maneuver, EU limits rate of change for steering control and I think it would be wise for US to adopt something similar for driver assist systems.

This makes evasive maneuvers impossible. EU regulations make it impossible for ADAS to even change lanes half the time.

Let’s not go down the rabbit hole of government specifying how machines we haven’t even built yet should work.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#248

Post by antattack » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

sleepybrett wrote: post #230

antattack wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla on Autopilot is not autonomous. I look at current driver assistance systems as human-robot hybrid. Any driver assistance system should be required to be clear in it's intentions to the driver and give time to react, otherwise it's like a wild horse.

it's sold as an 'autopilot' that means 'automatic pilot' that does not imply hybridization, that implies full automation.

I don't know where you get the idea. Even plane autopilot will not land the plane w/o Pilot's supervision.

People who don't read manuals put themselves at risk.

Even simple systems like Cruise Control carry plenty of warnings that one should be familiar with when operating (from Ford's manual):

WARNING: Always pay close attention to changing road conditions when using adaptive cruise control. The system does not replace attentive driving. Failing to pay attention to the road may result in a crash, serious injury or death. WARNING: Adaptive cruise control may not detect stationary or slow moving vehicles below 6 mph (10 km/h). WARNING: Do not use adaptive cruise control on winding roads, in heavy traffic or when the road surface is slippery. This could result in loss of vehicle control, serious injury or death. [and few more, shortened for brevity]

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#249

Post by AlotOfReading » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #209

AlotOfReading wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can set a guaranteed maximum on the delays (regardless of what those limits are), you're hard real-time by definition. The horror is that they weren't building a system that could support those guarantees.

I see, thanks. What if say, a system is written against an indeterminate timed GC like say, Azul or Go's, but code is written in a way that proves GC times never exceed X, whether by theory or stress testing. Is this still seen as 'unguaranteed'?

It depends on your system model (e.g. do you consider memory corruption to be a valid threat), but it could be. In practice, actually establishing that proof purely in code is almost always impractical or doesn't address the full problem space. You use hardware to help out and limit the amount of code you actually have to validate.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#250

Post by rootusrootus » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

joshribakoff wrote: post #70

I have FSD but not the beta. When cars cut across my lane autopilot will not react for a solid second or so, then proceeds to slam on the brakes after the car is clear. It does not instill confidence to say the least. From my POV it feels like someone put a debounce on the reaction to prevent phantom breaking, to the point the car doesn’t brake when it needs to.

The part that always bothered me most about AP on the highway was how willing it is to drive full speed into an obvious problem. Obvious for me, that is. Dense merging traffic, for example -- I can see the conflict coming, I can read the way people are driving on that on-ramp, and I take defensive action. My Tesla would just drive right into the center of that mess than then panic when things got crazy.

I no longer have my Tesla, but I stopped using AP before I sold the car, partly as a result of this behavior. And partly because phantom braking became pretty common for a number of overpasses we go under on our way to grandma's house, and it really scares the crap out of my wife & kids.

Aside from phantom braking, the best use case for AP, in my opinion, is to be a jerk and cruise in the middle lane of the freeway. It deals okay with that most of the time.