More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru • Hacker News Board

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#241

Post by ClumsyPilot » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 11:30 PM UTC

tertius wrote: post #218

_y5hn wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My strongest argument is AGAINST managers at Google getting to micromanage, censor and to revenge-fire a researcher, just because they personally disagree with their published AI Ethics Research . A job said researcher was tasked with and leading. Such behaviour, unless corrected, undermines Google's entire AI/ML and cloud operations.

That's not what I asked. If you can't argue the counter of your own position in the most honest way possible then either you're not prepared or not honest. It's called steel manning.

Let's try applying this, shall we:

I believe we should have no curruption in Russia. By your logic, unless I can give a strong argument in favour of corruption, I am not prepared or not honest?

Are you prepared to give a rigorous argument in favour of: terrorist attacks, slavery, eugenics, facism, child labour, sexism

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#242

Post by _y5hn » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 12:13 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #241

tertius wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what I asked. If you can't argue the counter of your own position in the most honest way possible then either you're not prepared or not honest. It's called steel manning.

Let's try applying this, shall we: I believe we should have no curruption in Russia. By your logic, unless I can give a strong argument in favour of corruption, I am not prepared or not honest? Are you prepared to give a rigorous argument in favour of: terrorist attacks, slavery, eugenics, facism, child labour, sexism

Bribes functions as oil in the machinery of society, and empowers strong men against rampant decadence. So is working for good when it is sanctioned and goes to the right people and their agendas, comprising of: terrorist attacks, slavery, eugenics, facism, child labour, and of course sexism.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#243

Post by apta » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:27 AM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #148

It's sort of meta but... The article repeatedly mentions Gebru's race and sex and includes it for the only Google employee quoted. Why does that matter? Is she more reliable because of her skin colour? Is he less reliable because of his genitals? The cynic in me feels like I'm being subtly trolled. Or maybe I'm just oversensitive? :)

It's typical SJW narrative. People are tired of it, it's like the boy who cried wolf story. Hopefully at some point people will just learn to ignore these "woke" SJWs as they have their tantrums.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#244

Post by RickJWagner » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 2:33 AM UTC

Per Google search, Google currently employs about 119,000 people.

So 1,200 condemn it, and 117,800 do not condemn it.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#245

Post by tertius » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 3:12 AM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #220

tertius wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really depends on your definition of right. Do you mean legally? Morally? Logically? When it comes to who has the ability to steer subordinates, managers are always right. Except if their managers disagree...

So just blanket appeals to authoritarianism then. Completely rational.

A company is not a government... Yes, someone who owns a company has the legal right to do whatever they want, as long as it's not criminal, with their property.

They have complete authority... They don't have to have someone else endow it to them or give it to them...

So yes, they are by definition authoritarian. That's one of the cornerstones of being able to own private property.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#246

Post by tertius » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 3:15 AM UTC

beisner wrote: post #203

whynotminot wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. Gonna take a quick guess you're still in undergrad. Yes, this is literally how employment works. Your future boss's job will be to use your labor efficiently for the company. You may disagree with your boss on an assignment, in which case it would be wise to schedule some time and professionally discuss…

Just because that is how the world works, doesn’t mean it has to be a that way (or should be that way).

It doesn't have to be no, but y s it should...

What is your proposal?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#247

Post by pault » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 5:47 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #138

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does though. For instance, were any articles framed as [More than X Google workers condemn firing of James Damore], despite that actually being the case? The media, universities and other elite institutions always support the "SJW cultural domination" stance on all these issues and the discussion is always framed from that perspective. You'll find similar framings such as [More than X GitHub workers condemn GitHub…

"You'll never find [More than X GitHub workers condemn removal of meritocracy rug], despite that also being the case" How would you know it's the case unless, say, 1200 GitHub workers sign a letter of protest as they did in the case of Google? Sure, we could imagine that 1200 GitHub employees objected, but that's not the same thing, is it?

People are afraid of being labeled a bigot and having their careers ruined because they have a nuanced opinion about an issue related to identity politics.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#248

Post by vacheron » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 6:48 AM UTC

InTheArena wrote: post #240

pmoriarty wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are job performance considerations, then what is the person I replied to talking about?

Ideological conformance. Google has a particular world view that insists that privacy is not a human right, that certain political positions are verboten and unions are bad.

This is not at all what Timnit was fired for. There is a enforced conformity at most large companies in terms of "approved" politics, but Timnit was not fired for going against the grain here. In fact, by all reports she was disliked internally for disingenuously using progressivism to further her own career. Timnit was also not fired for criticizing Google's stance on privacy and data collection.

This just seems like an offensive on a corporation in an otherwise unrelated topic.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#249

Post by vacheron » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 6:52 AM UTC

whynotminot wrote: post #150

cataphract wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from the comments from some of her ex-colleagues, she was not exactly an easy person to deal with: > The GPT-3 thread you describe was my first exposure to Timnit. Watching that thread unfold left me feeling upset, frustrated, and disappointed. > I was so excited in anticipation of other Googler's reactions and insights about GPT-3, but that thread got immediately derailed by Timnit into claims of racism, not…

I'm still trying to gather more insight into what actually happened here. But you have to know upper management calculated there'd be blowback for firing someone of her stature, position, background, race, gender, etc. They did it anyway. That to me says that keeping her around was worse than the storm they knew they'd generate by firing her.

It's a bit ridiculous to me that the current climate necessitates that people of particular backgrounds are more or less convenient to fire.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#250

Post by vacheron » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 6:58 AM UTC

eat_veggies wrote: post #164

dx87 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like, you support the decision, but your immediate boss doesn't, so they start looking for reasons to get rid of you that don't have any official connection to your stance. I remember a while back seeing leaked documents from Google where some managers shared an unofficial blacklist of employees to never promote and try to get rid of because of their political views.

Why are we conjuring hypothetical situations in which you are oppressed, instead of condemning the concrete case where Jeff Dean looked for flimsy reasons to get rid of Timnit Gebru?

How is this a flimsy reason? Trying to paint this decision as an example of oppression is either ignorant or dishonest. Her actions would have gotten almost anyone fired from any company. If the accounts from ex/current-Googlers are true about her being difficult to work with and creating an uncomfortable work environment I would have expected Timnit to have been terminated long ago.