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More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

theguardian.com

211–220 of 266 posts

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#211
Having read the paper (https://gofile.io/d/WfcxoF), I can't take the idea that Google wanted to suppress it seriously (as the article argues).

In the paper, another paper is summarized describing the environmental costs of training large models. It is then argued that global warming will disproportionately affect marginalized people. This constitutes "environmental racism" because the main beneficiaries of these models are rich white people whereas the people bearing the costs are poor people who live near the equator. In my mind, this is two-points-make-a-line thinking.

The rest of the paper is more interesting. It argues that machine learning is conservative in that it "reinforces hegemonic language". I think this is true. Models are trained using data, data is what exists rather than what we would like to exist. If you're unhappy with what exists (as Gebru is, terribly), this represents a problem. Two of her solutions are "curating" data (censoring data) and "working with panels of experiential experts through the Diverse Voices methodology" (constituting powerful groups made up of her ideological allies). I think these solutions are dead-ends. It seems to me that we have to make peace with the conservatism inherent in these models (and maybe all models).

The paper also argues (I think rightly) that problems will materialize "should humans encounter seemingly coherent language model output and take it for the words of some person or organization who have accountability for what is said". In other words, we grant other humans responsibility for what they say and do but what about models that can mimic humans very accurately? A similar problem exists today when a Google or Youtube account is erroneously locked by some algorithm. There's a sense that, really, no one is responsible for this outcome because an algorithm did it. Even if the owner manages to get his account restored, there's no clear way to assign responsibility for the mistake. Perhaps this problem will become even worse if we start to see algorithms powered by models that are near-indistinguishable from people.

Anyway, the paper doesn't seem controversial to me. It seems clear that Gebru's strident tone and personal style were the cause of her firing/resignation. Jeff Dean's claim that the paper was rejected for not citing other papers may be false. The truth seems much simpler: based on her own public communications, Gebru felt she was the subject of "harassment" and "dehumanization" but those grievances seem to be hyperbole, and the personal injury that she felt became an excuse for her to treat her coworkers poorly. In other words, she didn't drop her twitter persona at work.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#212
post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

To say the least those employees are misguided. Gebru was hired to research AI, yes she spent all her time being an activist. A pretty lousy one too. Case in point: 1. Her paper's claim on CO2 emission was not scientific in any way (projecting 100% of utilization of hundreds of desktop GPUs, really? Looking at emission without looking at how much would be saved or what other benefits are, really?). 2. Her paper claims that lacking support of all languages in BERT marginalizes minorities, which was similar to how Trofim Lysenko politicizing and moralizing biological science in Soviet. 3. See the quote blow. If this is not activism, I don't know what is. The only remaining questions are, why would Google AI hire her in the first place, and why should she work in a research org? Note it's perfectly for her to work in Google or any other company so choose the companies. I just thought people do real research in a research org.

"Citation: https://old.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/k77sxz/d_t... Sample comment:

Another ex-colleague here. I was not going to participate in the discussions but your post made me realize objective truth should come out. I do believe she actually thinks she is making the world a better place but in reality any interaction with her has been incredibly stressful having to carefully weigh every move made in her presence. When this blows over her departure will be a net positive for the morale of the company.

To give a concrete example of what it is like to work with her I will describe something that has not come to light until now. When GPT-3 came out a discussion thread was started in the brain papers group. Timnit was one of the first to respond with some of her thoughts. Almost immediately a very high profile figure has also also responded with his thoughts. He is not Lecun or Dean but he is close. What followed for the rest of the thread was Timnit blasting privileged white men for ignoring the voice of a black woman. Nevermind that it was painfully clear they were writing their responses at the same time. Message after message she would blast both the high profile figure and anyone who so much as implied it could have been a misunderstanding. In the end everyone just bent over backwards apologizing to her and the thread was abandoned along with the whole brain papers group which was relatively active up to that point. She has effectively robbed thousands of colleagues of insights into their seniors thought process just because she didn't immediately get attention.

The thread is still up there so any googler can see it for themselves and verify I am telling the truth."

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#213
Remember the last time Google tried to make the algorithm less biased only after some egregious cases of comparing Africans to gorillas have been found.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/16882408/google-racist-go...

At least Google did better last time ngl

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#215
post #180

A draft copy of the disputed paper was posted over in Reddit, if this is of interest to anyone: https://old.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/k77sxz/d_t... https://gofile.io/d/WfcxoF

> As shown in the amount of compute used to train deep learning models has increased 300,000x in 6 years, increasing at a far higher pace than Moore’s Law which posits that the amount of computation that can be done per unit area would roughly double every two years. This means that power consumption per unit area is not staying constant as implied by Moore’s Law [108]. IIRC Moore's law doesn't make any predictions a…

yeah, I've debunked this particular line as being technically nonsense. If I were a reviewer of the paper, reaching a sentence like that, I'd return to the editor with "revise and resubmit- this doesn't meet the basic technical level of expertise we require for publication."

if you build 2X the compute capacity with current nodes, you didn't violate moore's law.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A boss controls the work that you, via a contract, agreed to do. If you want out of the contract the boss cannot make you do the work. You have agency, they cannot threaten you with violence as a dictator could.

Managers are supposed to exercise power on behalf of the company. In this case, it’s unclear whether the manager was exercising power in the best interests of the company or of himself. In my opinion, might doesn’t make right. Managers aren’t de facto right purely by virtue of being a manager.

Really depends on your definition of right. Do you mean legally? Morally? Logically?

When it comes to who has the ability to steer subordinates, managers are always right. Except if their managers disagree...

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#217
post #22
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She offered to resign on a particular schedule to work out things with her team if they insisted on retracting the paper. They terminated her employment immediately, while she was on vacation, because of an email she sent to the ERG about it, and they didn't even inform her direct manager. Whatever they accepted, it wasn't the resignation she offered. (And even if they had done so, I expect the folks here to remain u…

> She offered to resign on a particular schedule It is not out of the ordinary at all for companies to walk people out on the day of resignation. The company is not required or even expected to abide by whatever schedule is presented to them.

> It is not out of the ordinary at all for companies to walk people out on the day of resignation.

I've observed a few cases of this as a bystander. Generally, the employee escorted out had accepted a job offer from a competitor -- and that doesn't appear to be the case here.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#218
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the strongest argument that you can come up with? Not that's been presented.

My strongest argument is AGAINST managers at Google getting to micromanage, censor and to revenge-fire a researcher, just because they personally disagree with their published AI Ethics Research . A job said researcher was tasked with and leading. Such behaviour, unless corrected, undermines Google's entire AI/ML and cloud operations.

That's not what I asked. If you can't argue the counter of your own position in the most honest way possible then either you're not prepared or not honest.

It's called steel manning.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a uniquely American notion of employment. “Do my bidding or be done away with” is not the norm across countries with strong unions and worker protections.

No, this is not uniquely American. Which country are you from that doesn't require employees to act in a way as directed by the company that employs them?

Literally any country with strong laws protecting strikes and work stoppages? In many parts of Europe, I can convince my coworkers that our bosses are treating us unfairly, unsafely, etc, we can walk off the job and not get fired. I doubt any employer would want us to do that, so it would be entirely against their “direction.”

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers are supposed to exercise power on behalf of the company. In this case, it’s unclear whether the manager was exercising power in the best interests of the company or of himself. In my opinion, might doesn’t make right. Managers aren’t de facto right purely by virtue of being a manager.

Really depends on your definition of right. Do you mean legally? Morally? Logically? When it comes to who has the ability to steer subordinates, managers are always right. Except if their managers disagree...

So just blanket appeals to authoritarianism then. Completely rational.
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