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US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

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Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#241

Post by boruto »

kolanos wrote: post #228
IllogicalLogic wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

The U.S. (1865) and Britain (1833) abolished slavery before China did. > Slavery in China has taken various forms throughout history. Slavery was abolished as a legally recognized institution, including in a 1909 law fully enacted in 1910, although the practice continued until at least 1949. Illegal acts of forced labor and sexual slavery in China continue to occur in the twenty-first century, but those found guilty…

Briton still holds colonies to this date. As a citizen of former colony[India] its laughable when you say slavery was abolished in 1833 because people in my country were treated no better till our independence.

Edited.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#242

Post by mthoms »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #227
jszymborski wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"just" retaliation... this makes their detention arbitrary. After Meng Wanzhou was arrested (and placed under house arrest in her multi-million dollar Vancouver mansion), the Chinese government arbitrarily picked two high-value Canadians (an entrepeneur and a Candian diplomat) and threw them into solitary confinement, interrogating them 24/7 in shifts, and giving ostensibly no access to lawyers/representation. Oh, an…

It's difficult to determine whether it is arbitrary (in the legal sense) because the Chinese government does not communicate on these issues and the Canadian government will obviously not want to spill any beans. What is plain to me is that a Canadian guy who can live in China at the border with North Korea, can run a business there, and personally knows Kim Jung Un is not just any "entrepreneur"... Likewise we canno…

The parent only claimed it was arbitrary in the meaningful sense that they had not committed any crimes. So yes, their detention is indeed arbitrary.

Of course, the CCP is going to pick high-profile targets and not some random tourists. Thus, who they chose was (of course!) not arbitrary.

Since you're intent on splitting hairs, lets' say "they arbitrarily detained two people who were specifically targeted for maximum effect". Is that better?

>were clearly not arbitrarily picked, it's a little disingenuous to claim that they were.

Being pedantic with the parent posters words when their intent was plainly clear is even more disingenuous and does not contribute anything to the discussion. If you've got evidence they were detained for just cause, rather that innuendo then lets hear it.

I find it very curious that you're inclined to give the CCP the benefit of the doubt given their track record and the details of this incident. Specifically, see paragraph 5 of this article where a Chinese representative is directly quoted linking the fate to the two Canadians to the case of Meng.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-china-sugge...

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#243

Post by kolanos »

boruto wrote: post #241
kolanos wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. (1865) and Britain (1833) abolished slavery before China did. > Slavery in China has taken various forms throughout history. Slavery was abolished as a legally recognized institution, including in a 1909 law fully enacted in 1910, although the practice continued until at least 1949. Illegal acts of forced labor and sexual slavery in China continue to occur in the twenty-first century, but those found guilty…

Briton still holds colonies to this date. As a citizen of former colony[India] its laughable when you say slavery was abolished in 1833 because people in my country were treated no better till our independence. Edited.

> As a citizen of former colony [...] because people in my country were treated no better till our independence.

Same could be said about the United States.

But unless you specify which country you're referring, I'll leave it there.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#244

Post by boruto »

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #101

If you look at the history, China did much better under colonialism. Compare how much nicer Hong Kong looks to the average Chinese city, with waste and trash everywhere and heavy pollution being spewed in the air. It’s time we had an honest conversation about the benefits of colonialism, not just discussing the negative aspects of it.

> It’s time we had an honest conversation about the benefits of colonialism, not just discussing the negative aspects of it.

I really wish this is not a troll and we as humans are past this thinking.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#245

Post by mthoms »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #126
CountSessine wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is the same faulty reasoning that led the press to underestimate the danger of covid19. The probability of arbitrary and unbounded detention and torture is very small, but the change in personal utility would be so terrible that you have to consider the risk profile of travelling to China to be similar to wingsuit-skydiving or exposure to radiation.

I think the faulty reasoning is to assume that the arrest of these 2 Canadians means that Canadians are not safe in China. This is FUD. As said, this overlooks who these 2 Canadians are: There are apparently hundreds of thousands of Canadians in China and the 2 arrested clearly have links to the Canadian government and/or intelligence agencies. The probability of being mugged and shot in the US is probably higher but…

>the 2 arrested clearly have links to the Canadian government and/or intelligence agencies.

One of them used to be diplomat so yes, he has connections to the government. The other has no connections (that have been reported on at least).

And where did you get "intelligence agencies" from!? Do you have a citation or did you just make that up? You know, like spreading FUD?

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#246

Post by jorblumesea »

IllogicalLogic wrote: post #192
jorblumesea wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have to visit the country to commit crimes against that country? Isn't that how every sovereign nation state works? The host country can choose not to extradite, but most countries generally accept this basic idea that sovereign nations can charge and warrant the arrest of individuals as pertinent.

If Assange leaked Chinese intelligence secrets, would he be free right now? I expect so. I'm not sure the whole "China is uniquely evil" idea that is expressed in these comments stands up to even the smallest scrutiny.

> If Assange leaked Chinese intelligence secrets, would he be free right now? I expect so.

Probably not, because he's made enemies of pretty much every country or nation state. Maybe Russia would take him in or something but the amount of geopolitical enemies he has is enormous.

> "China is uniquely evil"

I don't think anyone has expressed this. I think it's more, China is totalitarian with little respect for free speech, the rule of law and human rights, and often, arbitrary enforcement of laws. Before you say, "the US does this too!", it's true, but that's also a tu quoque" logical fallacy and is just gaslighting.

I really don't think the West has, currently, anything similar to their concentration camps or lack of religious freedoms.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#247

Post by h0p3 »

dicomdan wrote: post #21
rorykoehler wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posted 10 mins ago and already downvoted. Do HN not have algos to stop this astroturfing behaviour? It’s becoming very prevalent for anything that criticises the CCP.

This is by design, there's a lot of money in Chinese startups so it makes sense for YC to try and appease the regime. There are a couple superusers who will send this post to 3rd page in an hour or less. And everyone who speaks out gets a ban or warning from dang because of "rule violation". At the same time if you post anything, no matter how unsubstantiated, that criticizes US or liberal democracies or their tech c…

Hello. I am h0p3. I would love to hear more. I can prove I'm not a spook (though I am a crazy person). HMU if you ever need a friend to speak with.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#248

Post by mthoms »

koheripbal wrote: post #225
grawprog wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well considering China's been harassing Philippino fishing boats and starting minor skirmishes along the Indian border. Both countries are trading partners and have ties with america and America's now sent naval forces to the south China sea. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a332183... The threat of nuclear war isn't the only thing that makes a cold war. It's the constant small economic, social an…

I think there's a pretty big psychological difference between harassing a fishing boat and threatening nuclear war. Canada also harasses US fishing boats, fyi. https://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/13/us/fishing-boat-dodges-gu...

I'd not heard of this incident and found it interesting. Here's more context.

https://www.csmonitor.com/1989/1219/afish.html

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#249

Post by trixie_ »

wendyshu wrote: post #54
trixie_ wrote: post #31

The current administration has been bullying China incessantly. I'm not going to say if the reasons were justified or not because it's complicated, but we shouldn't be surprised by China's response. It's not like we're actively trying to improve relations either.

China's state-sponsored IP theft has been called the largest transfer of wealth in history. I'm honestly curious what the best diplomatic strategy is to combat it, other than declaring war.

You should do the cost/benefit analysis of war over IP theft. I don't think a lot of people have because we're trending towards war.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#250

Post by 0x8BADF00D »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #137
0x8BADF00D wrote: post #101

If you look at the history, China did much better under colonialism. Compare how much nicer Hong Kong looks to the average Chinese city, with waste and trash everywhere and heavy pollution being spewed in the air. It’s time we had an honest conversation about the benefits of colonialism, not just discussing the negative aspects of it.

Dunno. Colonialism led directly to the results you see today.

It is precisely the opposite. The rejection of Western colonial ideas, like the Enlightenment and the Protestant work ethic led to the results you see today.

That is why China will still be behind the West. The culture does not have integrity. Without integrity, you can never have innovation. You just end up building a society of poor imitators. I see this any time I visit such places. Sadly the United States is becoming like this as well.

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