Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 568 posts

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#241

Post by droopyEyelids »

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Show me any institution that has maintained trustworthiness for all of history, and I'll consider trusting Apple/Google/our govt. with the ability to tell where every citizen is and who they associate with for the rest of the future.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#242

Post by crushthecurve »

viraptor wrote: post #237
crushthecurve wrote: post #230

We've been looking at digital contact tracing from the perspective of Australia, as we see a huge push for the COVIDSafe app, based on Singapore's TraceTogether app. It seems the sensible order of questions is: 1) Do we have a contact tracing problem? 2) Does digital contact tracing generally solve it? 3) Is the specific app / implementation useful / safe / privacy-respecting? It appears the national conversation alm…

The post has a very city-specific view. (and it may have good points about that environment) Compare it to a regional town: minimal public transport, few/no dense residential buildings, no large offices. For me the app is literally a "does anyone I stood next to in the shop / petrol station test positive" indicator.

In a regional context a bluetooth proximity app offers even less theoretical value.

A contact is only registered after 15 minutes of time spent within an estimated proximity of 1.5 metres (itself a primitive model of infectious disease transmission based on a 1942 paper). Note other countries set the distance at 2 metres.

As outlined in other comments in this thread, close contact rules include anyone in a room for more than 2 hours, so even though all close contacts have to be manually interviewed (there is no instantaneous notification and isolation) for most social situations close contacts won't be registered through crude estimates of proximity: home, family / friends, work all require thinking about and providing contacts.

When you strip out all the situations that aren't beneficial, that starts to leave public transport in major metro situations where commutes are greater than 15 minutes.

Keep in mind that also implies the end of any social distancing (as otherwise no contacts are registered). That seems obvious, as public transport becomes overwhelmed if capacity is significantly reduced.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#243

Post by mynameisvlad »

searchableguy wrote: post #26
karambir wrote: post #9

Will be interesting to see if they can ban Indian govt. app[1] which needs full location access(clarified)[3]. A lot of people like this app(including me) but also know government does not have good track record in securing private data. Previously Apple were made to bend their rules when India threatened to ban Apple devices if they don't allow TRAI Do Not Disturb app in 2018.[2] [1] https://play.google.com/store/ap…

If they ban it, my next phone will be an iPhone.

Apple is known for being far more heavy-handed with its banning of apps in their store, so I wish you luck on that endeavour.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#244

Post by viraptor »

ghshephard wrote: post #41
cratermoon wrote: post #22

So GPS for me but not thee? "Privacy experts have warned that any cache of location data related to health issues could make businesses and individuals vulnerable to being ostracized if the data is exposed." Apple and Google already have that data in-house, it's just as vulnerable as any data. How is this not an absurd stance?

I can't speak for Google, but I know that Apple goes out of their way not to have any clue where your are. For example, when you do mapping directions, you get issues multiple single-use codes, that are refreshed during the trip, so not only does Apple not know what directions you asked for, they can't even associate the trip with a single entity. When you say, "Apple has the data in-house" - what are you referring t…

> they can't even associate the trip

That's assuming the single-use codes are not persisted on the other side. Maybe they aren't.

"Apple has the ability to have the data in-house" / "Apple promises not to have the data in-house" would be more precise. The rest relies on the current behaviour and T&C.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#245

Post by int_19h »

PaulKeeble wrote: post #159
jedberg wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are building a whitelist. They even made the criteria public. You have to be a government or health entity to publish a Covid related app.

That isn't a whitelist, there is no way on it with a legitimate app when the entry criteria is being a state.

That is a whitelist. They don't have to be easy to get on, or, indeed, to even allow any new entries.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#246

Post by selectodude »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #241
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Show me any institution that has maintained trustworthiness for all of history, and I'll consider trusting Apple/Google/our govt. with the ability to tell where every citizen is and who they associate with for the rest of the future.

I'm just not sure why we're more trusting of our wireless service providers who have explicitly given personal location data away to not only the government, but also to advertisers, than we are of Apple who would love to sell us another $1200 phone.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#247

Post by heavyset_go »

forgotmylogin2 wrote: post #143
nicwolff wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. And that's the problem – they're giving governments tools that let them more easily and effectively infringe on the privacy rights of their citizens. Privacy isn't invaded when the data is collected, although that's a necessary step; it's invaded when a cop or bureaucrat queries that data to see what a citizen has done. Giving them that tool is morally complic…

This is a ridiculous stance to take. If true, then open sourcing any form of software is morally corrupt since the government could then use it for evil. Quite frankly, I don't think any reasonable person would consider selling software to the government to be morally corrupt unless they were reasonably confident the government would use it for evil. Right now, nobody has made a compelling-enough argument to make me…

> This is a ridiculous stance to take. If true, then open sourcing any form of software is morally corrupt since the government could then use it for evil.

There are popular licenses with such clauses.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#248

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

taywrobel wrote: post #64
GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They create tools that enable the government to infringe on the privacy rights of their citizens

I could argue the exact same about literally any database used by the government. Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. If you don’t like the bullshit the government does, that seems like an issue you should take up with the government, no? You’re using a tech company as a scapegoat.

It isn't simply a database, as I'm sure you know. There are multiple pipelines of information which need to be glued together, cross correlated, etc. They (Palantir) provide services to make policing citizens easier and allow police departments to overstep their boundaries.

Also, I'd like to point out that this isn't an "either or" situation. Obviously the government is involved, as they no doubt put out the contracts, but Palantir is the one cashing the check. They've created their entire business model around big secretive government contracts.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#249

Post by taywrobel »

patrickaljord wrote: post #132
taywrobel wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve only worked with a handful of LEOs in my time there, but the ones I did work with were genuinely concerned about it. If you’ve never worked with a government agency before, let me tell you, Hanlon’s Razor is in full effect. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. The higher ups know that free reign for their officers to look up anything is a recipe for legal nightmares. The ind…

Not sure why you're being downvoted. All your comments have been very well and politely argued (whether people agree with them or not) and this is the first time I got a pick at what palantir is actually doing. Thanks for the info.

Meh, it’s fine, downvotes don’t bother me. Especially when you take the position that goes against common opinion, it’s to be expected.

The irony to me is that when I was at Palantir they talked extremely openly about all their technology. A ton of it was open sourced, and in depth tech talks were posted to YouTube, but almost no one watched them.

I think people just like writing them off as shady or sketchy because it’s easier than needing to reason about the clear ethical nuance that exists in the government contractor space.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#250

Post by spicyramen »

Location information, political preferences, socioeconomic status, photos, emails, search locations, to name a few. Is very dangerous that they are openly monopolizing access to everybody's life without regulations in place. I personally believe that Engineering teams do their best to anonimize individuals but reality is that other products teams such as Ads or growth don't do it
Post reply on HN