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Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

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241–250 of 358 posts

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but people who claim "they've made the switch" just don't get it. You don't really make a switch from being a night owl. I thought I'd made switches multiple times too: * Taking early classes in college * Deliberately cooling myself down and going to bed super early * Getting a puppy that forced me to wake up super early Every single method regressed to night-owl schedule within 2 months. Not to mention my…

I'm sorry, but people who claim "they've made the switch" just don't get it. Agreed. At 46, and having been a night-owl pretty much my entire life, I'm skeptical that you can just "switch" to another mode. Maybe you can, through very conscious and focused effort, manage to adapt to what appears to be a "morning person" lifestyle; but I suspect that people who do that are ultimately just faking it. That said, I've nev…

I was a hard-core night owl for years (all through college and my first 20 years of working). Then I had a kid, then another. They're 10 (+/- a bit) and I now reliably wake up sans-alarm at 5-5:30 every day, after years of doing that for [or because of] the kids. They even sleep later than that now, but I'm easily up by then.

It does mean that I'm tired by 11 or midnight, but even when left entirely on my own schedule (kids away on school vacation), my "new" natural schedule persists.

I didn't seek to change it (and if it drifted back later, I might even be slightly happier).

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done everything too, and the only thing that works for me is sleeping pills. I think it's a very unpopular view nowadays (esp. after Why We Sleep), but a small dose of a benzodiazepine changes my life completely. I'm in the midst of a full diagnostic course including cerebral scans, a sleep study and blood analysis, but my neurologist told me there's a good chance that nothing actionable will be revealed and tha…

I’ve upvoted your comment but I would disagree with saying “ your clock is messed up ”. The OP’s clock is fine and acting as it it’s ‘programmed’ to. What’s messed up is the way society places a higher value on the circadian rhythms of early-risers over those of night owls. I recall hearing a theory that having individuals with differing circadian rhythms within the same social group provided an evolutionary advantag…

If we define larks as those whose circadian cycle leads the day-night cycle, and owls as those whose circadian cycle lags the day-night cycle, it's easy to hypothesize reasons for lark dominance in the civic schedule.

Hypothetically, say local sunrise is 6 AM, and sunset 6 PM, a lark rises at 5 AM and retires at 9 PM, and an owl rises at 7 AM and retires at 11 PM.

If the lark wishes to be immediately productive on waking, they might generate noise, vibration, or odors in the owl's sleeping area, or may simply resent the owl for continuing to sleep while the lark has started working, and thus may wake the owl intentionally. If they have a task that requires cooperation, they could either wait 2 hours for the owl to wake, or go rouse them immediately. At that point, the owl has had 6 hours of sleep, and could probably function on that amount for that day. The owl, on the other hand, can work cooperative tasks immediately on waking, as the lark is already awake, and has no reason to ever awaken the lark prior to the natural conclusion of their sleep cycle.

The converse act to the lark waking the owl 2 hours early is the owl keeping the lark up 2 hours late, after which the lark will likely just wake later. Each has a 2 hour sleep deficit, but the owl would have been re-clocked by daylight all day, and thus it would be more difficult for them to retire early after being awakened early (unless the weather was gloomy and overcast). They would also desire to awaken 2 hours later than usual the next morning. But there the lark is again, waking the owl up early again. The lark can cause the owl to be chronically sleep deprived, and the owl cannot effectively retaliate.

So the owl can, at best, create rules that prohibit larks from disturbing others' sleep before "a reasonable hour". Commuting, artificial lighting, time zones, and daylight savings have all combined to make that "reasonable hour" less reasonable.

Daylight savings is a particularly execrable lark tradition. While the owl is sleeping, the lark changes all the clocks, and then wakes up the owl, waving the clock in their face, so the owl does not murder the lark immediately. And then the larks only relent when the evidence of the sunrise would reveal the ruse. Only the larks have any real incentive to redefine civil time to get the owls out of bed earlier. So when someone says, "your body-clock is messed up," the best response is, "your civil time is messed up," and then roll over for a few more zees.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#243
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how kids help. Sure they will get you to wake up earlier. Even if the kids themselves are night owls, you don't decide when school starts. But it is not so different from any other obligation. Waking up early is easy, you just need a loud enough alarm clock. Doing so without being in a constant state of jet lag is the hard part.

Lots of international travel helps. If you're jetlagged from going to a different continent every week or so, when you're awake and asleep doesn't really factor into it.

I can't imagine ever getting used to jet lag. It is the most uncomfortable feeling that I am routinely exposed to. Feels like my body is failing.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#244

If you were able to "no longer be a night owl" after changing diet, through exercise or by other changes in your behavior, you were in fact never an actual night owl but simply someone with bad sleeping habits. You read the same thing whenever there's a discussion on clinical depression. People push their anecdotes about mindset changes but fail to acknowledge they were never clinically depressed in the first place.

"Anyone who is cured, was never really ill" seems a position full of problems; is that really what you're saying?

Less charitably, it sounds like gatekeeping.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#245

I like the fact they present it as an either/or choice. My natural sleep cycle seems to default to a 28 hour day (eg I go to bed slightly later every evening then morning) which makes interfacing with reality pretty difficult. This seems to be something shared with a number of geeks I know.

I haven't run into many people with non-24! If you have non-24 could you answer a few questions here: https://forms.gle/fdQWLAa6kb283SHJA

I'll share the anonymized results in a week or so. My motivation is more social than scientific.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#246
There's quite an interesting array of anecdotes here. Mine is a bit different: I was always a night owl, staying up late and sleeping late into the day if left to my own devices.

In the past couple years that has been completely stood on its head. Now, I regularly collapse into bed around 10 in the evening, and wake up – very reliably – between 5:30 and 6:30 in the morning. I haven't set an alarm in the past two years, except once in a while when I have to get up early for something important. And even then, more often than not, I wake up before the alarm goes off.

I am not sure what triggered this change. Perhaps it's age related (I am 66 years old). But really, I have no idea. The change is easy to live with, though, so it doesn't freak me out; but it does make me wonder what happened.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#247

For some reason I don't get creative and productive until the hours I should be sleeping. Throughout my teens and twenties (I'm in my 40s now) I indulged this tendency and it served me well, often staying up for multiple days without realizing it and the productivity was incredible. Since then I've become more interested in preserving/improving my health and how such behaviors may be harming it, so I try to keep a re…

YMMV with amphetamines -- they seem very specific-body-metabolism specific, but you'll always be fighting your body's attempt to move to homeostasis which means it will be very probable that you'll run into tolerance, diminishing returns, side effects, and so on.

As far as sleep deprivation goes: it's fascinating what happens to our brains at night. Studies show that REM sleep prunes and maintains new synapses associated with development and learning[0], but other studies show that this effect might be amplified with sleep deprivation[1]. If intermittent fasting can cause one's body to behave differently in a fasted state, perhaps intermittent sleep deprivation could cause effects that in moderation are not wholly negative? I really don't know, but anecdotally, I've noticed myself able to sometimes get some huge breakthroughs in the late night hours. This has been happening less frequently as I age and become more proficient at a lot of things I do, though.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it’s just the small subset of software engineers who frequent HN, but I swear 99.9% of the people on here are night owls, and they very much let their opinions be known on every thread about sleep.

You are expressing a common early-morning person condescending attitude towards night-owls.

I am an early-morning person and I am not feeling condescending towards you right now. Just slightly put off that you decided that all early-morning people have something against you.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#249
post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

I've done everything too, and the only thing that works for me is sleeping pills. I think it's a very unpopular view nowadays (esp. after Why We Sleep), but a small dose of a benzodiazepine changes my life completely. I'm in the midst of a full diagnostic course including cerebral scans, a sleep study and blood analysis, but my neurologist told me there's a good chance that nothing actionable will be revealed and tha…

Have you tried Time Restricted Eating(TRE) and limiting food intake to daylight hours? Did you notice any changes from that?

As someone who was fortunate to fix a self-created sleeping disorder where I managed to completely f up my circadian rhythms, I wish I had known about TRE years ago. As far as I know it's not (yet) part of the usual list of sleep hygiene/CBT advice, but for me at least it's been the most comprehensive change I've made to my lifestyle that has benefited my rhythms and sleep quality.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#250
post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

> Why? because there is a strongly negative view society has on me for waking up at nearly 9am every day

I laughed OUT LOUD at this!! I wake up at 11am/12pm every day, and yes there is a strongly negative view society has on it. I've been trying to wake up at 8am for almost 10 years now, instead my bed time has slowly moved from 2am, to 3am to almost 5am now.

however, I get so much done working straight from about 12pm to 8pm that its totally worth it to put up with the snide remarks about my schedule

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