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Educated Fools

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Re: Educated Fools

#241

Post by Can_Not »

ur-whale wrote: post #234
IIAOPSW wrote: post #146

I'm going to break slightly with the authors opinion here and say we do solve every problem with "be more like us" but that doesn't always mean college. Other solutions involve "why don't you just move", better mass transit / fewer cars, some form of retraining (not college per se) etc. There's a whole basket of diverging "elite" values such that even if they stopped telling people to go to college tomorrow they woul…

You seem to assume that higher education yields left-leaning people. This strikes me as a perfect example of [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_principle > Maybe I am being one of those dastardly, snobbish, grating coastal elites. You absolutely are. The use of the words "lower class" in your post is a perfect proof of that.

There seems to be nothing in the comment about left leaning people being smarter, perhaps a freudian slip on your part.

Re: Educated Fools

#242

Post by true_religion »

tacitusarc wrote: post #168
IIAOPSW wrote: post #146

I'm going to break slightly with the authors opinion here and say we do solve every problem with "be more like us" but that doesn't always mean college. Other solutions involve "why don't you just move", better mass transit / fewer cars, some form of retraining (not college per se) etc. There's a whole basket of diverging "elite" values such that even if they stopped telling people to go to college tomorrow they woul…

Part of the problem is the suggestion that they need help in the first place. So what Joe the garbage truck driver didn't go to college? So what he has a small house in a kinda shitty neighborhood? Maybe he's doing the best he can and maybe he actually has a pretty happy life. The working class doesn't need pity and suggestions to move or go get a degree. Here's something novel: why are the roads in nice neighborhood…

Around here road repair is allocated via property taxes. Pay more taxes because you live on a nicer street, and you will see more road repair.

This gets compounded because nicer streets also lobby for school bus stops central to them, which leads to even more dollars being spent there.

Last of all, if too little is being done on the roads then the neighbors on a nice street pool their money and privately fix the road themselves.

Re: Educated Fools

#243

Post by gumby »

watwut wrote: post #231
jacquesm wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides that, Joe the garbage truck driver may be a better dad than the people criticizing him.

He may be great dad theoretically, but if his job requires him to drive that truck for 12 hours a day and he is constantly in stress from lack of money or local crime and cant afford doctor to help him with back pain he got from the job, his ability to be that great dad is limited. Joe the garbage truck driver has limits just like anybody else. The family growing up in "shitty neighborhood" likely means that kids are…

This was no such an issue when unions were stronger.

The unions themselves grew fat and some of them corrupt, but cleaning that up discarded the baby along with the dirty bath water.

Re: Educated Fools

#244

Post by treis »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #146

I'm going to break slightly with the authors opinion here and say we do solve every problem with "be more like us" but that doesn't always mean college. Other solutions involve "why don't you just move", better mass transit / fewer cars, some form of retraining (not college per se) etc. There's a whole basket of diverging "elite" values such that even if they stopped telling people to go to college tomorrow they woul…

>solve every problem with "be more like us"

The overriding divide in today's politics is between those that benefit from immigration and outsourcing and those that are harmed by it. Those that benefit say "be more like us" so that you too can benefit. Those that are harmed say change the system so that we are not harmed.

Re: Educated Fools

#245

Post by jariel »

realtalk_sp wrote: post #160
jariel wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" and massive cuts to social programs including education, healthcare, " The US spends more per-capita on education than almost any other nation, and produces a higher % of college grads as well. [1] The US spends more per-capita on healthcare than any other nation - not just private but public as well! The US spends more per-capita on public healthcare alone than does Canada, wherein Canadians get full coverage. [2]…

I should have clarified that my comments did not apply purely to the federal level. In fact, it's a fairly well-understood irony that more local levels of government have a higher impact on peoples' lives yet receive less attention from voters. Republicans are pummeling education systems in many of the states that they control. They've likely stolen the opportunity to be properly educated from multiple generations in…

"The fact that you quoted the raw per capita spending number suggests you're unfamiliar with the dynamics of inflated healthcare costs in the US."

I've lived and had healthcare services in two states, and lived and had health services in several nations abroad.

I'm familiar with the problems.

Re: Educated Fools

#246

Post by gumby »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #211
jml7c5 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The class conflict [...] is really the driver of much of social progress. How so?

I'm thinking: because it gives people a strong, active, positive goal to pursue. Members of each class want to migrate to the higher one, or at the very least, have their children break into the higher one. If you're discriminated or treated unfairly by a group of people, the natural reaction would be to separate yourself from that group of people, not fight it. But if for some reason you really want to join that gro…

> I'm thinking: because it gives people a strong, active, positive goal to pursue.

Your statement comes from your philosophical stance. As it happens I share your view about my own motivations. Despite that I recognize that most people do not.

Also: your position sounds American (are you?). The idea of “class” and most of the literature around it is European, where class is not something that people can typically change. Even in the US there is little class mobility.

Re: Educated Fools

#247

Post by tacitusarc »

gttalbot wrote: post #226
tacitusarc wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is the suggestion that they need help in the first place. So what Joe the garbage truck driver didn't go to college? So what he has a small house in a kinda shitty neighborhood? Maybe he's doing the best he can and maybe he actually has a pretty happy life. The working class doesn't need pity and suggestions to move or go get a degree. Here's something novel: why are the roads in nice neighborhood…

The situation at that level is far more dire. A non-union garbage truck driver doesn't have a house. Can't afford a family. No health insurance. No retirement plan or pension. And if you go to any large company, you'll find that it's the same there unless you're in the upper "employee" caste--you're working for a contractor company, and have the same bad deal. For all the discussion of diversity, any pathway out is p…

That's a blanket statement that just doesn't hold true. Reality is much more mixed.

Here: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Waste-Management-1/reviews?fcount...

Re: Educated Fools

#248

Post by treis »

barrenflats wrote: post #124

This one really hits home for me. I’m at a cross roads in my life right now and kind of lost. I had a great job working as the number 2 at a small business that I lucked into, but for various reasons beyond the control of the corporation, had to close. I’m in my late 20s, and as this article puts it, merely a high school graduate. I can code and do IT work, coordinate problem solving between businesses, read scientif…

> I could readily absorb the material but I was terribly antagonistic towards teachers who generally desire a sense of authority in their class rooms. I also as an adult have been diagnosed with ADHD, which to me at least explains a good portion of why I struggled in school. I never did my homework

I'd guess this is the root of your problem. People don't want to hire those that are terribly antagonistic towards authority figures (a.k.a their boss) and don't do their homework (a.k.a work).

Re: Educated Fools

#249

Post by TeMPOraL »

gumby wrote: post #246
TeMPOraL wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm thinking: because it gives people a strong, active, positive goal to pursue. Members of each class want to migrate to the higher one, or at the very least, have their children break into the higher one. If you're discriminated or treated unfairly by a group of people, the natural reaction would be to separate yourself from that group of people, not fight it. But if for some reason you really want to join that gro…

> I'm thinking: because it gives people a strong, active, positive goal to pursue. Your statement comes from your philosophical stance. As it happens I share your view about my own motivations. Despite that I recognize that most people do not. Also: your position sounds American (are you?). The idea of “class” and most of the literature around it is European, where class is not something that people can typically cha…

I'm from Europe, though I have enough exposure to US culture that my own thinking does blend European and American ideas (to the extent you can even define "European" vs. "American" thinking).

Anyway, I think class mobility is actually a real thing over here. For one, a good chunk of Europe was under Soviet rule until ~1990, and in the early days of proper market economy, a lot of enterprising individuals moved up a few rungs in the ladder. Secondly, it's hard to not see our industry as a perfect way for easy upward mobility. Myself, I jumped up a level just by virtue of preferring computers to sports as a kid.

Re: Educated Fools

#250

Post by Can_Not »

blippage wrote: post #225
bumby wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> education has begun to act like wealth, because education is a form of wealth, and the productivity divide between wealth and work is increasing You might be interested in reading “The Meritocracy Trap” which discusses how elitism, particularly in regards to education and hyper-competitive productivity, drives inequality. The idea is that this is ultimately worse for both the non-elites who can no longer compete an…

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. -- Winston Churchill

For historical context, Winston Churchill is the guy that starved 3 million Indians to death.
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