Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair • Hacker News Board

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#241

Post by ISL » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:17 AM UTC

cletus wrote: post #213

p1necone wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is still garbage compared to Windows and Linux though. You can take basically any x86 computer from more than a decade ago and install modern Windows or your favourite linux distribution on it and it will work (albeit potentially quite slowly depending on the hardware). Are there any good reasons why Android and iOS are so much worse in this regard?

The battery is a big part of that (IMHO). Even laptops, which obviously have batteries, tend to get used on a charger a lot. Mine are almost always on a charger. Batteries degrade and on a device that is used 95%+ on battery power this is noticeable after 2-3 years such that there's no real point in making the hardware last longer than that. You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size an…

A tablet with a depleted battery and a USB power supply is still a viable computer/display.

One of the devices that started this thread would be a tablet Trello-board/calendar on our refrigerator if not for the fact that the device hasn't had a security update in many years.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#242

Post by SteveGerencser » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:22 AM UTC

stingraycharles wrote: post #78

THJr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a number of reasons, but as I understand the main issue is that John Deere is treating their tractor's firmware like the music industry was treating MP3's. They say farmers may own the tractor itself, and the hardware, but they're only licensing the use of the firmware and don't have the right to modify it. (Which can be necessary when repairing a tractor that has many computerized systems.) They're essential…

Playing the devil’s advocate: what’s preventing them from claiming the tractor itself as IP as well, and licensing it as such? Eg you’re not allowed to change your own tires. Would such a thing be legally possible, and if not, why does this differ from the firmware?

Most manufacturers already do this with fluids. You are required to use their oil and oil filters or you 'may' void the drivetrain warranty. We just bought a new tractor last spring and this is part of the new deal when it comes to purchasing a new tractor.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#243

Post by jandrese » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:24 AM UTC

to11mtm wrote: post #207

jandrese wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the threat model for a tractor/harvester/etc...? Who wants to send a piece of farm equipment on a very slow rampage via a complex and difficult hack job? One that will be stopped if the manufacturer has any sense at all and has physical kill switch. Maybe sabotage from competing farmers? But that seems far less likely than the owner wanting to maintain his equipment after the manufacturer has abandoned it.

Devils advocating here, but they could always use the boogeyman of China wanting to disrupt our exports via espionage. Remember, doesn't have to be likely, just has to be a good headline.

I feel like if spies were sneaking around farms disabling tractors they probably wouldn't do it via a software thing. Lighting them on fire or shaped charges on the engine seem harder to reverse.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#244

Post by duxup » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:25 AM UTC

I wonder if it is like in Minnesota where there is rural support for right to repair...but they vote for representatives who oppose it?

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#245

Post by SteveGerencser » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #27

taurath wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money. You’re not buying a tractor, you’re buying a “platform”.

Well, he said “rational,” as in, how does Deere rationalize it. As far as I can tell, they’re just parroting the usual DMCA talking points… > John Deere declined to be interviewed but sent a lengthy statement outlining its concerns. The company doesn’t want people altering its copyright-protected code because, said director of public relations Ken Golden, “changes could lead to the unsafe operation of products, disru…

JD is on where near a monopoly on anything other than green paint. Mahindra, Case IH, Kubota, New Holland, and on and on are all equally available, and in most cases cheaper, alternatives that function just as well. We own both a Case and a Kubota.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#246

Post by catalogia » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:30 AM UTC

CamelCaseName wrote: post #233

andrepd wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows 7 is due to stop being updated very soon, all the while the only alternative is to downgrade into Windows 10.j sure don't call that "basically forever".

1. Windows 7 was supported with security updates for over 10 years (2009-2020). Second to only Windows XP (13 years) 2. They offered free upgrades to Windows 10 for a long time (a year?) 3. Replacement cycles for consumer desktops/laptops are short relative to OS cycles, with some internet stats saying ~5 years on average. 4. You can still run Windows 7, you just won't get security updates. You're free to repair it o…

13 years of support may very well be above and beyond the norm in the software industry, but that doesn't make it "basically forever".

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#247

Post by baroffoos » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:31 AM UTC

dwg wrote: post #228

baroffoos wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is even though we can do this, the average user doesn't. They get the unsupported message and they then throw the laptop in the bin and buy the same thing again. All electronics makers should be required by law to supply security updates and spare parts for devices for at least 10 years after the point of sale (not after the release date). Another thing I think would have a big impact is requiring all con…

Why they should electronic makers be "required" to do supply security updates and spare parts for 10 years? To begin with, 10 years is somewhat arbitrary. Why not 12? 15? 20? These tractors could be serviceable for 50 years or more? So why not 50? Not every consumer wants or cares about this, but every consumer would be forced to pay for it. How would this even be enforced? Who will be the judge of what updates were…

I'm happy to listen to alternative solutions on how the environment can be protected from needless product waste. And no, recycling doesn't come close to reuse/repairs.

>Not every consumer wants or cares about this

What consumers want or care about is less important than the ability to live on the planet in 100 years.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#248

Post by olivermarks » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:31 AM UTC

tapvt wrote: post #220

toomanybeersies wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen and used farm equipment and machine tools (lathes, mills, etc.) from the 40's and 50's that are still in good serviceable condition. I think it's been a long time since farmers cultivated their own seed though, even before roundup-resistant and GM crops were commonplace. It's a very different science and skill to growing crops.

I still run a 1949 Ford 8N tractor. No heroic measures needed to keep it going. Just routine maintenance.

Designed to last forever if maintained properly..

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#249

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

cletus wrote: post #213

p1necone wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is still garbage compared to Windows and Linux though. You can take basically any x86 computer from more than a decade ago and install modern Windows or your favourite linux distribution on it and it will work (albeit potentially quite slowly depending on the hardware). Are there any good reasons why Android and iOS are so much worse in this regard?

The battery is a big part of that (IMHO). Even laptops, which obviously have batteries, tend to get used on a charger a lot. Mine are almost always on a charger. Batteries degrade and on a device that is used 95%+ on battery power this is noticeable after 2-3 years such that there's no real point in making the hardware last longer than that. You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size an…

> You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size and cost (to have the packaging and interconnects)

This is one of those things which is technically true but practically a red herring. The amount of weight it adds is on the order of grams and the cost is pennies. They stopped making replaceable batteries because they want you to throw away the device and buy a new one.

> and who is going to keep making them?

This is the least of the trouble if the model is at all popular, because the margins on custom batteries can be quite large (e.g. charge $15 for a battery with a $3 manufacturing cost), so as long as the specifications are documented you can expect somebody to be willing to make a buck.

But what would really help is to standardize the batteries. The shape of phones hasn't really changed since the start of the iPhone era and there are only meaningfully a half dozen different sizes.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#250

Post by SquareWheel » Tue, Dec 17, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

cletus wrote: post #210

What many people may not realize is just how long-lived a lot of farm equipment is. There will be tractors out there still working that are 75 years old and just keep getting repaired. Obviously the manufacturers would like to sell those farmers tractors more often than that or, in the very least, generate a revenue stream from existing hardware and honestly that's what I see a lot of computing in vehicles as being:…

Your comment on GM crops is technically correct but also misleading. Most crops are already grown from hybrid seeds. For reasons of genetics, hybrid seeds cannot be reused in the next season.

It's also quite a time-consuming process to reuse seeds, which makes the whole process less cost effective anyway. GM crops have not had a significant effect on this issue.