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Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

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Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#241

Post by linuxftw »

ohaideredevs wrote: post #230
linuxftw wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market That's just your opinion. Unfortunately, it's supported by the entrenched education establishment, but that doesn't make it true. The cold hard reality is, if you aren't college material, don't attend some vocational school, and don't learn a trade, you're in for a life of hard labor or burger flipping. It's going to be a complete…

I think the biggest part of the problem isn't that there are liberal arts degrees, it's that they aren't clearly labelled "these are for the rich kids who never need to work". Same for any "business major", of course, except double major in accounting on CPA track.

If you consider the amount of public funding that goes into higher education, degrees for 'rich kids that never need to work' is not a good use of taxpayer dollars. In effect, the liberal arts degrees themselves are the problem.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#242

Post by jtms »

Delfino wrote: post #50
justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

I agree with some of what you said but as an educator, the statement "Not everyone is cut out for college." doesn't sit well with me. Outside of some severe disabilities, I don't think there's anything inherent about who can and can't eventually succeed in college. Some people aren't adequately prepared for college by the time they turn 18 and that's a societal failure. Everyone should have the opportunity to go to a…

I do not buy that inadequate preparation is the reason some people aren’t able to handle college. Sounds very naive and idealistic. Some people are simply not intelligent and/or disciplined enough to handle the courses and never would be - that’s harsh and I wish it weren’t so, but it doesn’t make it untrue.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#243

Post by manifestsilence »

physicsyogi wrote: post #231
linuxftw wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market That's just your opinion. Unfortunately, it's supported by the entrenched education establishment, but that doesn't make it true. The cold hard reality is, if you aren't college material, don't attend some vocational school, and don't learn a trade, you're in for a life of hard labor or burger flipping. It's going to be a complete…

> Yeah, one way to reduce costs would be to remove all the extraneous coursework that's of zero value to society. Some of that "extraneous coursework", I'm thinking of things like theather, drama, and dance, brings billions of dollars to the economy every year. For example, Broadway alone generates billions in spending annually [1], with some of that spending going towards the transportation, hospitality (hotel, food…

Music major here, played in Carnegie Hall. Now I'm a code monkey. Yes, the arts have economic value to society. But even someone majoring in them in a grad program isn't usually going to be making money directly on that stage, much less someone who takes an elective.

I'd argue the real value of the arts in education is that they enrich the lives of those people taking them. This is particularly true in grade school, because it's usually free. Once you start to get into debt for these enriching passions, it becomes a calculus of worth. The best way to enjoy the arts is to have sufficient stress-free time to enjoy them, plus a small amount of discretionary funds depending on the art. If you don't have that, you can be an amazing artist with no time, energy, or money left to enjoy your own talents.

I think also a major problem in our society is the centralization that easy and prevalent media access causes in the arts. Instead of hundreds of local artists, you only need one Lady Gaga. She's great, but there's also a huge amount of value in taking in the arts of local people who you know or who are part of your community. It fosters diversity, local community, and a sense of pride and identity in a place. It also helps ensure that there will be more quality superstars in the future, as everyone has to start somewhere.

Anyway, all this to say I agree, and then some. People just often focus on the extrinsic value of the arts - economic or their side benefit to STEM performance - when the intrinsic value for each person who partakes in them is the most important. Sing in the shower :)

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#244

Post by dbcurtis »

itronitron wrote: post #145
dbcurtis wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know the first thing about escalator repair I agree with at least that much of what you said. It is near or at the top of OSHA's list of most dangerous construction trades. Elevators and escalators have extreme safety requirements for carrying passengers. I have been in enough elevator control rooms with qualified mechanics to be able to assure you that a 60-day wonder would be a very dangerous actor to let…

Are there any building management firms that have full time mechanics? Given that escalators and elevators are transporting people it seems like it would be easy to justify having someone directly responsible with its operation (like a tram driver).

Well, the way it works in practice is that most buildings have a multi-year service agreement with either the service arm of a major manufacturer, or a third-party maintenance firm. A really large property complex would probably have a mechanic who essentially is full time at that complex. But as a practical matter, you need access to spare parts, drawings, etc, so it is hard to be a one-man show. Because of parts access and licensing, I think it would be impractical for most commercial landlords to keep a mechanic on staff.

Usually for any building there is a primary mechanic who is assigned to that site, so that he has familiarity with the quirks of the system, relationships with the landlord's staff, etc. Of course mechanics in the same office cover for and assist each other.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#245

Post by bjs250 »

mirimir wrote: post #213
bjs250 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politely disagree. I'm going to take engineering math to mean ~4 semesters of calculus (differentiation, integration, multivariable, and differential equations) as well as maybe a Linear Algebra class and a discrete mathematics class (probability, set theory, combinatorics). I would argue only the discrete mathematics course is practically useful Anecdotally, as an engineer in industry, I use very little of the engin…

I'm old. There were no PCs then, so the analytic stuff was useful. What I remember most about the pure math classes were proofs about whether or not something was solvable. But never anything about how one might actually solve anything. And far too much number theory. All too abstract for me.

Yeah, well I totally agree on that end. Proofs are almost never practical for anyone.

Number theory is also a huge bore

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#246

Post by kiliantics »

linuxftw wrote: post #240
FiddlyPack wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studying history seems like it would have immense value to society, but negative value to short-term corporate interests, and, by extension, may not be in the best interests of the individual. The same could be said of the study of ethics. I must say “seems like” because there’s really no scientific way to prove this (most of the time...although there are some interesting micro-studies in behavioral economics). But i…

Just ask the burger flippers how it's such a great value to society. Unless you mean middle/upper class society, then yeah, sure. For the poor, helps them in no way imaginable.

Well it's not like the business/tech majors are helping the poor either. If anything, they help keep people poor more than the history majors do.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#247

Post by linuxftw »

manifestsilence wrote: post #243
physicsyogi wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, one way to reduce costs would be to remove all the extraneous coursework that's of zero value to society. Some of that "extraneous coursework", I'm thinking of things like theather, drama, and dance, brings billions of dollars to the economy every year. For example, Broadway alone generates billions in spending annually [1], with some of that spending going towards the transportation, hospitality (hotel, food…

Music major here, played in Carnegie Hall. Now I'm a code monkey. Yes, the arts have economic value to society. But even someone majoring in them in a grad program isn't usually going to be making money directly on that stage, much less someone who takes an elective. I'd argue the real value of the arts in education is that they enrich the lives of those people taking them. This is particularly true in grade school,…

> Anyway, all this to say I agree, and then some. People just often focus on the extrinsic value of the arts - economic or their side benefit to STEM performance - when the intrinsic value for each person who partakes in them is the most important. Sing in the shower :)

The discussion isn't whether or not you personally find intrinsic value in art. The question is, of how much utility is it to include this kind of thing in an educational curriculum when there are many people struggling financially.

When everybody's off public assistance and the unemployment numbers are at 0, we should discuss enlightening some people with the fine arts. Until then, we should be spending that money in order to train and educate people in a way that will make a material difference in their lives.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#248

Post by sevensor »

linuxftw wrote: post #236
sevensor wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what makes adult life harder? Being surrounded by close-minded, uneducated people who lack perspective and critical thinking skills. I'm not here to defend useless humanities classes taught in high schools and colleges. Many of them are quite bad, but we need to raise the bar, not eliminate it.

Yeah, I guess being in poverty isn't so bad as long as you have an open mind and critical thinking skills. Always with the intangible 'benefits' to people. If what you're worried about is 'critical thinking skills' perhaps there should be a course modeled for that exact outcome. How does learning about ancient history make you open minded? How does fictional literature make you open minded? Maybe you should open your…

You seem to be all over this thread, so maybe you're replying as much to all the people disagreeing with you as you are to my comment specifically. I believe there's a bigger place for vocational education than it currently occupies, but I take issue with your disparagement of the humanities.

The humanities are important, both for individuals and for the body politic. History gives us a critical lens for looking at the present, fiction develops imaginative sympathy for others, grammar lets your voice be understood. Why should being poor exclude you from the use of history -- recognizing when you're being used by a rabble-rouser, literature -- understanding and being understood by your neighbors who may be different from you, or grammar -- being able to participate at even the most basic level in public debate? That's disenfranchisement. How do you suppose poverty is maintained?

And that's just the argument for humanities education for those in dire poverty. For the striving lower-middle class, music, art, civics, philosophy, and economics give you ways to understand yourself as a citizen and how to use wisely those resources you have.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#249

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

>> Why do English classes focus on literature and poetry instead of business and technical writing?

Because they're trying to teach you English, as opposed to business and technical writing?

Same goes for history, maths proofs, etc etc. They're not trying to teach you how to get a job, but how to think mathematically, etc.

Not that school succeeds in teaching those things. I don't think I learned anything at school. But I did learn many of the things that school was trying to teach me, on my own. Because the things that school tries to teach you are actually useful, kinds of knowledge that cultivate the personality and make you a better person in all sorts of ways.

We should try to change education to be more effective teaching you what it does, not changing what it tries to teach you.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#250

Post by astura »

badpun wrote: post #162
Delfino wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with some of what you said but as an educator, the statement "Not everyone is cut out for college." doesn't sit well with me. Outside of some severe disabilities, I don't think there's anything inherent about who can and can't eventually succeed in college. Some people aren't adequately prepared for college by the time they turn 18 and that's a societal failure. Everyone should have the opportunity to go to a…

Jordan Peterson pointed out that the army has a cutoff of IQ 85 (IIRC) for their recruits. In the army’s estimation, they can’t find ANY job in the military that such people would be adequate for - and they might very well be right (it’s against their interest to reject prospective recruits). So, if such people of low intelligence (tens of millions of them in the US) are not good enough for grunt jobs, how well will…

Well, there's no set cutoff, and it's done by percentiles on the Armed Forces Aptitude Test, not raw score.

The US military tries to reject the bottom third of candidates, however, the standards are always changing depending on need and the number of people who are interested in joining.

It's true that the higher scorers preform better than the lower scorers.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2006/01/why-dumb-recruit...

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