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Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

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Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#241

Post by ip26 »

ivoras wrote: post #201

This is all ridiculously country- and culture- specific. For example many places in Europe have adopted what I think is originally a German idea that anything vaguely technical, if done professionally, is engineering. So you have "engineers of chemistry" which is kind of reasonable but also "engineers of mathematics" which seems odd. Here, you can call yourself whatever you like but if the company hiring you requires…

Is an "engineer of chemistry" a chemist by another name? In the US a "chemical engineer" is an engineer who specializes in the industrial use or production of chemicals. Think, the guy who designs the factory to manufacture a certain chemical. But "engineer of chemistry" doesn't sound like the same thing.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#242

Post by ThenAsNow »

InternetOfStuff wrote: post #218
naasking wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering". As a Canadian engineering graduate myself, I don't think that's true. Saying you studied engineering is fine, that's literally what the degree is. Calling yourself an engineer is a different story, and that requires more work. It's like ca…

Out of curiosity: I studied engineering in Germany. There's no such thing as a PEng in Germany -- the only thing is that the title of Dipl.-Ing. (equivalent to MEng), which was the culmination of my studies, is protected. How does it make you feel for me to claim I'm an engineer? (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) )

> (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) )

I feel similarly to you, but would extend it to cover most software development, period. With feet in multiple traditional engineering disciplines, I don't see the majority of software development as coming close to the bar of engineering (though some certainly does). And I don't mean that in the sense of licensure, nor am I merely trying to be snooty. But to hear the software world co-opt "engineering" to mean "technical work" is grating.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#243

Post by jpambrun »

chrisseaton wrote: post #221
naasking wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering". As a Canadian engineering graduate myself, I don't think that's true. Saying you studied engineering is fine, that's literally what the degree is. Calling yourself an engineer is a different story, and that requires more work. It's like ca…

> It's like calling yourself a doctor without a doctorate In some countries most medical doctors don't have any kind of doctoral degree. In the UK for example doctors have a bachelor's degree.

I have a PhD, but can't represent myself as doctor or use the Dr. Prefix as this is reserved for member of the college of doctors.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#244

Post by jpambrun »

criddell wrote: post #213
naasking wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering". As a Canadian engineering graduate myself, I don't think that's true. Saying you studied engineering is fine, that's literally what the degree is. Calling yourself an engineer is a different story, and that requires more work. It's like ca…

Do they let the people operating trains call themselves engineers ?

No.

https://www.oiq.qc.ca/en/media/pressReleases/Pages/default.a...

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#245

Post by jpambrun »

Waterluvian wrote: post #2

This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.

If you are performing reserved acts from Ontario you are infringing regardless of how you call yourself.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#246

Post by vonmoltke »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #204
grecy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

A PEng is waay more work and implies way more experience and knowledge that someone who's just done a Bachelor. I can understand their annoyance.

Maybe a PEng takes more work than a PE, but a PE is not "way more work" than a Bachelor's. It basically just involves doing your job well enough for three years to get three recommendations from PEs and remaining sharp enough on academic subjects to pass an exam at the end of that period. I didn't bother mainly because I neglected to take the FE before I graduated.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#247

Post by chrisseaton »

jpambrun wrote: post #243
chrisseaton wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like calling yourself a doctor without a doctorate In some countries most medical doctors don't have any kind of doctoral degree. In the UK for example doctors have a bachelor's degree.

I have a PhD, but can't represent myself as doctor or use the Dr. Prefix as this is reserved for member of the college of doctors.

That’s bonkers! Doctor was originally a title for academics before medics borrowed it. I think medics without an MD or PhD shouldn’t be using the title. What country is that in?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#248

Post by vonmoltke »

naasking wrote: post #210
Taniwha wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - the judge affirmed that the state can still control who can call themselves a "professional engineer" or "licensed professional engineer" - but allowed anyone to claim to be an "engineer" ... it's a situation akin to being an "accredited teacher" with a teaching credential compared to all of us who teach at one time or another

I guess anyone can call themselves a doctor then, and we'll just have to call proper doctors "professional doctors" or "licensed professional doctors".

What's a "proper doctor"? Is someone who obtained a Ph.D. in English Literature not allowed to call themselves "doctor"?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#249

Post by sneak »

dang wrote: post #186
sneak wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state has a monopoly on violence; they do not need to protect their reputation. They’re the only game in town.

Would you please stop taking HN threads on generic ideological tangents? They're tedious (because repetitive, because nothing new) and lead to flamewars. I feel like we've had to ask you this kind of thing a lot and have cut you way more slack than we do for most. If you'd review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the spirit of this site to heart, we'd appreciate it. You might find these other…

Certainly; I forgot and did not intend to derail the thread. I appreciate the links.

Happy new year.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#250

Post by foepys »

ThenAsNow wrote: post #242
InternetOfStuff wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity: I studied engineering in Germany. There's no such thing as a PEng in Germany -- the only thing is that the title of Dipl.-Ing. (equivalent to MEng), which was the culmination of my studies, is protected. How does it make you feel for me to claim I'm an engineer? (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) )

> (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) ) I feel similarly to you, but would extend it to cover most software development, period. With feet in multiple traditional engineering disciplines, I don't see the majority of software development as coming close to the bar of engineering (though some certainly does). And I don't mean that in the sense of licensure, n…

I am seriously curious, what is the difference between e.g. an mechanical engineer designing a new machine and a person designing a new software system that is intended to be maintained for at least 10 years by various teams? Is there some sort of bonus just because it's physical vs virtual?
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