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Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

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Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#241

Post by leetcrew »

eiaoa wrote: post #164
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from the US. You could just replace France with the name of my state in your comment and it would hold. We don't even have scooters yet and they're talking about passing regulation in case it becomes a thing. Some places are really used to using regulation to (attempt to) solve problems and when you've been swinging a hammer for the past several centuries it doesn't really matter whether the nails you think you'r…

> We don't even have scooters yet and they're talking about passing regulation in case it becomes a thing. That's a good thing , not a bad thing. It means your regulators are paying attention to events elsewhere and are trying to proactively prepare for them, rather than flailing about in reaction to complaints and problems. When the scooters come, your jurisdiction will be ready for them, rather than having to ban t…

making new laws to solve problems that don't actually exist yet is the opposite of what I would call a good thing. maybe this is a cultural difference between the US and Europe, but over here we tend prefer for the government not to swing its weight around until there is clear evidence of a problem.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#242

Post by grumpydba »

bsaul wrote: post #82

As a french, seing french government officials trying to impose their knee-jerk « let’s tax it » reaction to any kind of problem makes me absolutely sick. They’re just a bunch of jealous incompetent insufferable pompous politicians than don’t understand a thing about the private sector and so instead of trying to fix the numerous reason why we don’t have any competitor to google / facebook etc ( such as our best engi…

As a fellow french having lots of tax lawyer friends, let me just say that you are naive. Google & al earn money in France, they should pay taxes. Simple. Right now those tech giants are using dubious tactics to avoid paying their fair share. What is needed is simply justice and fairness.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#243

Post by claudius »

bsaul wrote: post #192
bluecalm wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does make tons of sense. What doesn't make sense is running a business that doesn't bring profits. Taxing revenue is one idea end accounting shenanigans and unfair practices like price gauging to eliminate competition which is now tax advantages strategy. Iam not a fan of it for other reasons but it does way more sense taxing profits which is just non workable idea. EDIT: replying to child (not possible to reply d…

You do realize the whole concept of a startup is about raising money because you know you can’t both grow fast enough to conquer a new market while at the same time making profits ? Also, some companies like industries have huge revenues but make few profits because of the enormous cost to produce what they sell. Try thinking about the various cases and you’ll soon realize there’s actually a very good reason why corp…

> You do realize the whole concept of a startup is about raising money because you know you can’t both grow fast enough to conquer a new market while at the same time making profits ?

But undoubtedly a start-up during that phase also benefits from public education and roads, from state-subsidized internet and transport, from security provided by the police force etc and hence should also pay its fair share towards those costs?

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#244

Post by mjevans »

vkou wrote: post #178
stickfigure wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best analogy is that taxing corporations on revenue would be like taxing you based on the # of hours you work, irrespective of your wage rate. Folks that work low-wage or volunteer jobs would suddenly have negative income. The only viable jobs left would be bankers and software developers.

I am, essentially, taxed based on my revenue, because my taxes don't let me deduct my rent, my car payments, my gasoline, or my groceries [1] - all of which are essential expenses that I need in order to continue working. Corporations, for some reason, only get taxed on revenue - expenses. [1] Whoop-dee-doo, I can claim a $3,800/year deduction. As if anyone in the United States can live on $3,800/year.

Particularly the rent - without stable jobs and actual career paths that are rewarding it doesn't make sense to actually buy a house in an area. As if it's possible to afford one near jobs in the first place.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#245

Post by lultimouomo »

unilynx wrote: post #240
woodpanel wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Result is the same, VAT is not a cost for enteprises. That's just partly true. Depending on the taxing agreements between two countries involved you can apply reverse charge, yes. But within one company's country, the VAT is not something that you can "just refund" from the government. Instead you can set off the VAT you've paid against the VAT your customers paid. In other words: The only way for you pay zero VAT…

That's not how VAT works. As a simple example for a EU company: - buy something nationally (you pay VAT to the company) - export it to another EU company (reverse charge, so no VAT received or paid) - get the VAT refunded from your local tax agency. Even nationally, you get VAT refunded if you've paid more to others than you've collected. At least for NL, but I'm pretty sure these rules should be the same in all EU c…

This.

There are exceptions (e.g. in Italy you only get refunded for 50% of the VAT you pay when buying phones, or 40% the VAT you pay when buying cars), but they are pretty much that, exceptions.

If operating domestically you will usually get more VAT money from customers than you will give to suppliers, so you will pay the difference to the state. If for any reason you pay more to suppliers than you get from customers, the difference becomes a tax credit that you can carry to the following accounting period or deduce from some other tax.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#246

Post by vkou »

mjevans wrote: post #244
vkou wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am, essentially, taxed based on my revenue, because my taxes don't let me deduct my rent, my car payments, my gasoline, or my groceries [1] - all of which are essential expenses that I need in order to continue working. Corporations, for some reason, only get taxed on revenue - expenses. [1] Whoop-dee-doo, I can claim a $3,800/year deduction. As if anyone in the United States can live on $3,800/year.

Particularly the rent - without stable jobs and actual career paths that are rewarding it doesn't make sense to actually buy a house in an area. As if it's possible to afford one near jobs in the first place.

Even if I were to buy a house, most of my mortgage would not be deductible. Only the interest portion of it. None of my home maintenance expenses would be deductible, either. Neither are the ridiculous fees that get paid to the mortgage underwriter, the realtor, etc.

I'd love to only be taxed on 'profit' - the money that goes into my savings account, after deducting living and transportation expenses. [1]

[1] Actually, if everyone were taxed on profit, my tax burden would proportionately go up. It would be a fairer system of taxation, though.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#247

Post by woodpanel »

unilynx wrote: post #240
woodpanel wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Result is the same, VAT is not a cost for enteprises. That's just partly true. Depending on the taxing agreements between two countries involved you can apply reverse charge, yes. But within one company's country, the VAT is not something that you can "just refund" from the government. Instead you can set off the VAT you've paid against the VAT your customers paid. In other words: The only way for you pay zero VAT…

That's not how VAT works. As a simple example for a EU company: - buy something nationally (you pay VAT to the company) - export it to another EU company (reverse charge, so no VAT received or paid) - get the VAT refunded from your local tax agency. Even nationally, you get VAT refunded if you've paid more to others than you've collected. At least for NL, but I'm pretty sure these rules should be the same in all EU c…

How is that any different to what I've said?

> Even nationally, you get VAT refunded if you've paid more to others than you've collected.

You do realize that this implies you're operating at a loss? Thus my statement about companies usually being run to make profits.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#248

Post by bsaul »

claudius wrote: post #243
bsaul wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize the whole concept of a startup is about raising money because you know you can’t both grow fast enough to conquer a new market while at the same time making profits ? Also, some companies like industries have huge revenues but make few profits because of the enormous cost to produce what they sell. Try thinking about the various cases and you’ll soon realize there’s actually a very good reason why corp…

> You do realize the whole concept of a startup is about raising money because you know you can’t both grow fast enough to conquer a new market while at the same time making profits ? But undoubtedly a start-up during that phase also benefits from public education and roads, from state-subsidized internet and transport, from security provided by the police force etc and hence should also pay its fair share towards th…

i suppose you're french, because it's the one argument people keep repeating again and again whenever someone speaks about tax reduction: but what about the roads then ?

The problem (beside the fact that corporate tax on revenues is just one tax corporations are paying among others) is :

1/ every single developed country has roads and hospitals and schools. Look at how much they ask for tax and the service they offer (and no, don't believe what people in france tell you. We don't have the best hospitals by far, and we don't have the best schools).

2/ at which point do you think we should stop adding taxes ? Is there a limit, or will you always be able to say "but then, what about the schools and the roads" ?

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#249

Post by Thiez »

briandear wrote: post #236
ajnin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how come all those companies HQ in europe are in ireland Ireland has been busted (among others) for secretly passing sweet taxation deals with Google, Facebook, Amazon & co. According to you, that's the way to do it, right ? Tax race to the bottom, give deals to big player that no small company has hope to ever negociate, that's sure to bolster competitors. Any kind of attemp to level the playing field by applying…

Why should Ireland be able to determine the taxation policies of Ireland? The EU doesn’t set immigration law for Ireland does it? Why should it be allowed to dictate tax law? Low taxes can be a competitive advantage to fiscally responsible countries, why must the EU try to “fix” that?

Because Ireland has signed treaties that restrict its actions? If they don't like the rules they can leave the EU. Sadly for them leaving the EU would also make them less interesting as a tax haven. Choices choices.

Also this is not just about 'taxation policies'. They are pretty free in their policies, except that they can't make exceptions for particular companies because such special deals give a company a competitive advantage, distorting the market.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#250

Post by l9k »

SilasX wrote: post #218
bsaul wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://gs.statcounter.com/search-engine-market-share/all/eur...

I don't think "monopoly" is best judged by "current market share", but by whether a) it's easy for users to switch, and b) whether having that market share is self-reinforcing in a way that prevents competitors from entering. The parent's point was that a) is not true for Google as a search engine. b) doesn't seem to be true either; while money and experience can make you provide better search results, you don't get…

So what you're saying is it's easy to compete with Google and get some market share in that space?
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