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A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

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Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#241

Post by komali2 »

colemannugent wrote: post #223
komali2 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be "free" if budgets are rearranged out of the insanity they are in now. Imagine slashing DoD funding in half. I don't think taxes would have to go up a penny to provide free education then. Other than that, yes, I agree with you in using investment terminology.

I also agree that current budget allocations are insane. Maybe if we stopped fighting so many wars we could make more progress here at home. Another assumption that you make is that the problem with the US education system is a lack of funding. I don't think this is the case.

I think we can both point to a lot of inefficiencies that need to be fixed, but given that local public schools essentially depend on the property value of the surrounding area to determine quality, I do think funding is an issue. I make the argument that the federal government should funnel shitloads more money to local schools.

I think we can have that while also auditing and cleaning up whatever ineffective messes money is being spent on by the doe now.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#242

Post by gammateam »

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #227
gammateam wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because there is a market inefficiency. now they cause a different inefficiency.

But limited-supply medallions isn't the obvious solution in any case.

correct its one of many solutions, some of which probably work in tandem

but without reinventing the wheel, medallions can probably be reimplemented in a better way. instead of turning the drivers into debt serfs, Uber and Lyft can buy all the medallions until the municipality stops issuing them.

it is an anti-spam prevention, anti congestion in this case. it'll also likely force the ride hailing companies to likely be even more discerning about their drivers

the negative? well yes the egalitarian side job that "anybody" can do is probably going away now. fares may also go up. this was inevitable.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#243

Post by pwned1 »

vkou wrote: post #166
pwned1 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to a budget for the NY DoT? I cant seem to find anything. The DoT web site is devoid of budgets and the state's web site doesn't help either.

I may be grossly misunderstanding the budget, but this is what I looked at. [1] > The FY 2018 Executive Budget recommends nearly $11.6 billion for the Department, an increase of $749.1 million over the FY 2017 budget. This year-to-year change primarily reflects new capital investments in transportation infrastructure. > Preventive Maintenance - Capital Projects Funds - Other $4,428 (million) [1] https://www.budget.ny…

I'm looking for the revenue side. I can't find that. How is the department funded?

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#244

Post by bobthepanda »

Const-me wrote: post #233
bobthepanda wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An equilibrium which balances price, convenience, time, etc. will be established - so don't fight it, let it establish itself. An equilibrium for local passenger travel might be established. Which does a whole lotta nothing for the emergency vehicles, the delivery vehicles, the commuter and local and intercity buses, etc., all of which have to share the same roads. In fact, average bus speeds citywide in New York h…

> Unpriced traffic https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/gas/gasidx.htm https://dmv.ny.gov/motor-carriers/new-york-state-highway-use... https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/taxes/business-commercial-...

The first is a tax on gas, which affects different vehicles differently; for example, a Tesla would not be taxed at all.

The second only covers state highways, of which most of the roads in New York City, especially Manhattan, are not.

The third is a flat fee; to get the most value out of it, it actually incentivizes driving more.

None of this is an actual price on traffic; you pay the same rate whether or not you do all your traveling on lightly trafficked country roads, or bumper to bumper city streets. In DC, for example, they started charging tolls to maintain a constant speed of 55MPH, and it turns out the market clearing price could go as high as $40. https://ggwash.org/view/65796/the-new-i-66-tolls-offer-great...

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#245

Post by astura »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #236
astura wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) this isn't risky or dangerous 2) do you also avoid leaving your house entirely?? because you are likely to run across homeless people in other public places than the subway. The worst smelling homeless person I've ever encountered was at a grocery store.

It's just one of many factors, but at the current price points, if there are 2 or more people going somewhere in SF/NYC, then Uber/Lyft is worth a few more dollars to get there on time (assuming no traffic) and without a chance of any other headaches. There's too many delays, service interruptions, etc with public transit also, so it all adds up to be a better experience with Uber/Lyft at a low cost per person.

Which is fine, but don't frame it as a safety issue, because that's just straight up lying.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#246

Post by vkou »

pwned1 wrote: post #243
vkou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be grossly misunderstanding the budget, but this is what I looked at. [1] > The FY 2018 Executive Budget recommends nearly $11.6 billion for the Department, an increase of $749.1 million over the FY 2017 budget. This year-to-year change primarily reflects new capital investments in transportation infrastructure. > Preventive Maintenance - Capital Projects Funds - Other $4,428 (million) [1] https://www.budget.ny…

I'm looking for the revenue side. I can't find that. How is the department funded?

Since the expenses of the department greatly exceed the revenue collected by the tax, arithmetic indicates that it has to be funded by some combination of the general state, and federal tax pools.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#247

Post by Const-me »

bobthepanda wrote: post #244
Const-me wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unpriced traffic https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/gas/gasidx.htm https://dmv.ny.gov/motor-carriers/new-york-state-highway-use... https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/taxes/business-commercial-...

The first is a tax on gas, which affects different vehicles differently; for example, a Tesla would not be taxed at all. The second only covers state highways, of which most of the roads in New York City, especially Manhattan, are not. The third is a flat fee; to get the most value out of it, it actually incentivizes driving more . None of this is an actual price on traffic ; you pay the same rate whether or not you…

> None of this is an actual price on traffic

IMO gas tax is the best we can do. There not that many teslas, at least not yet.

It scales proportionally with miles driven. It’s roughly proportional to vehicle size. It even scales with traffic intensity, cars consume more fuel per mile in cities. It’s inexpensive to manage. Best of all, unlike direct traffic tax, gas tax is anonymous, no need to track who went where, all people will eventually go to a gas pump, except people living near a state border but that’s IMO acceptable losses.

I think that’s one of the reasons why fuel costs 2-3 times more here in Europe compared to US, and on average we have better public transportation.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#248

Post by komali2 »

manigandham wrote: post #136
komali2 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument is that you no longer feel pressure to kick the issue to your congressperson to push for public transit, because a "good enough" solution has been presented (a solution that isn't as good for the environment or city than a bus).

Maybe, but perhaps the politicians should automatically look out and plan for the public good instead of needing a line-by-line spec sheet for their job.

Now this is a form of optimism I can get behind :)

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#249

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

gammateam wrote: post #242
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But limited-supply medallions isn't the obvious solution in any case.

correct its one of many solutions, some of which probably work in tandem but without reinventing the wheel, medallions can probably be reimplemented in a better way. instead of turning the drivers into debt serfs, Uber and Lyft can buy all the medallions until the municipality stops issuing them. it is an anti-spam prevention, anti congestion in this case. it'll also likely force the ride hailing companies to likely…

I don't think Uber/Lyft are ideal solutions by any means.

But I still think their origin can be traced to numerous problems with taxi services, definitely including the false economy of medallions. But taxi companies in the US have been ridiculously poor providers of service. Prior to Uber/Lyft, I had numerous problems with taxis, e.g. even scheduling them 24 hours ahead, they would show up late, resulting in being late to work or (nearly) missed flights; the dispatchers would lie about drivers accepting credit cards; etc. etc..

> fares may also go up. this was inevitable.

Right now Uber/Lyft are subsidising fares. Once they've achieved market dominance, they will surely raise rates.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#250

Post by bobthepanda »

Const-me wrote: post #247
bobthepanda wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first is a tax on gas, which affects different vehicles differently; for example, a Tesla would not be taxed at all. The second only covers state highways, of which most of the roads in New York City, especially Manhattan, are not. The third is a flat fee; to get the most value out of it, it actually incentivizes driving more . None of this is an actual price on traffic ; you pay the same rate whether or not you…

> None of this is an actual price on traffic IMO gas tax is the best we can do. There not that many teslas, at least not yet. It scales proportionally with miles driven. It’s roughly proportional to vehicle size. It even scales with traffic intensity, cars consume more fuel per mile in cities. It’s inexpensive to manage. Best of all, unlike direct traffic tax, gas tax is anonymous, no need to track who went where, al…

Not many Teslas, but lots of electric hybrids. A hybrid Toyota Camry traveling the same distance as a regular one will cause the same amount of wear and tear on a road, but will pay less gas tax.

For this reason US states have started experimenting with taxing VMT. You don't actually need to track mileage; just measure the odometer at the end of the month.

As far as tracking concerns, Manhattan is an island connected via bridges and tunnels; all you need to do traffic pricing is to toll the crossings.

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