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Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

nytimes.com

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Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#241

Post by jacksmith21006 »

jenga22 wrote: post #123

Apple has now entered dangerous territory. Over the last month they seem to have banned apps because some government out there didn't like that app. To make matters worse, those very same governments weren't happy with the app being removed from their regional app store but they demanded it removed from all app stores. The VPN issue was a wake up call for a lot of developers. These apps were on the app store for year…

How is it any worse than Apple handing over all their user data in China to the government?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy... Campaign targets Apple over privacy betrayal for Chinese iCloud ...

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#242

Post by jacksmith21006 »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #18
anderber wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this points to me is the risks of owning a phone whose only way to add apps is to go through one company's own discretion. Unlike in Android where you can easily install apps from other app stores or just download the file.

Android is almost as locked to Google Play as Apple is to the App Store, to the effect that no vendor has made a successful business selling phones without the Play Store. While they've finally fixed it, for years, they used scare tactics to prevent sideloading by insinuating it as a security risk, requiring you allow "less secure apps" in order to sideload. Most applications won't run without Play Services even if y…

The core difference is I can use an apk without any trouble.

But this is not the first time we can see a difference between how Apple and Google conduct themselves in these situations.

Look at China. The China government tried to hack Gmail accounts and so Google left China. Versus Apple handed all their user data over to the China government. I get it was so Apple could make money in China but sometimes principle is more important as we saw with Google.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy... Campaign targets Apple over privacy betrayal for Chinese iCloud ...

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#243

Post by driverdan »

jonny_eh wrote: post #30
driverdan wrote: post #27

This is why I will never own an Apple phone. No one should have the power to decide what can and can't be installed on your devices.

So you've never owned a game console either?

The last console I owned was a PS2, which could run Linux. No reason to own a console anyway, PCs are such a better game platform.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#244

Post by skorbenko »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #51
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why is Signal updating?

Russia hasn't banned Signal, has it?

Russia has not banned Signal yet. A possible reason may be that a) Telegram is still way more popular b) Telegram was (and still is) a major networking service for the Russian opposition

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#245

Post by dwaite »

codedokode wrote: post #191
lloeki wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can add a scary warning which could be enough for many users Hah. Does the tech crowd never learn? What we expect the "many users" to see: +-------------------+ | This is dangerous | | you'll be on your | | own, so take care | | | | [cancel] [ok] | +-------------------+ What the "many users" really see: +-------------------+ | This is a mildly | | annoying message | | only made to | | delay access to | | instan…

I think it depends on the person. There are responsible people who aren't going to take a risk for dubious opporunity to watch pirated movies on a tiny screen. The message should be honest and then it won't be interpreted as you imagine.

This has nothing to do with warez or pirated movies.

For over a year, Minecraft shipped for the Mac without being properly signed for Gatekeeper. Their official support article said the only way to get it to work is to turn the feature off (disable binary signatures system-wide) - probably because they didn't want to explain to people what right-clicking was.

I'm unsure if this was due to lethargy, lack of wanting to pay $99/yr to have their $2.5 bil product have a proper software signing key, or an ongoing technical issue. But they in no way explained to users what the ramifications of this change was, and the typical user making the change was likely a kid.

If Apple provides a way for a company (I'll pick on Spotify here as a likely example) to ship their app without having to play by the rules of the App Store, it will quickly become the only way to get the app. The only way the users will be able to get the functionality they want on their phone would be to disable the security protections and side-load. And historically, companies have dismissed the ramifications to the user of doing this ("Hit 'Ok' on the dialog which is displayed")

Companies like Amazon has a whole third party store based on exploiting what is often referred to in Android as a "developer mode". I see zero likelihood Apple will make it possible for a side loading feature compatible with mass distribution without government pressure. If you don't care about distribution but just want to build and load an app on your personal phone, thats already possible and does not require any fees or paid tools (assuming you have a Mac).

Of course, this App Store is also the central authority which would allow Telegram to take down fake apps which are there to confuse users and potentially provide vectors for things like ransomware and surveillance by state actors.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#246

Post by dwaite »

Qwertie wrote: post #214
chipotle_coyote wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's probably true, Apple could bring to iOS what macOS has been doing for years: code-signed apps that aren't distributed through the App Store and aren't subject to any of the App Store's restrictions (and can't guarantee the ostensible security benefits), but can still be "disabled" by Apple if they prove to be bad actors. On macOS, there are actually three states for this: signed App Store apps, signed re…

iOS doesn't allow this because Apple makes shitloads more money from mobile than desktop. They recently blocked Valves app from iOS because it allows you to stream games from another device which puts apples cut from the app store at risk. They don't care about steam on OSX because they make so much less money there.

To be clear, Apple's published statement is that it was blocked because it lets you purchase games through the app, which has been forbidden since day 1.

They also state they are continuing to work with Valve to get it published (presumably with only the feature to play existing purchased and free content, like say the Kindle app)

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#247

Post by dwaite »

jMyles wrote: post #69
jonknee wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The millions of desktops riddled with adware and viruses running to this day is pretty good evidence that most people cannot effectively manage software on a desktop OS. Remember when you'd find four different toolbars on IE that your friend/family/neighbor had no idea how they got? If you're on this site you are not most people. But, if it wasn't for the rules of Apple and Google what kind of things do you think Can…

> The millions of desktops riddled with adware and viruses running to this day is pretty good evidence that most people cannot effectively manage software on a desktop OS. That seems like victim blaming to me. I think this is more like pretty good evidence that Microsoft has done a disservice to its users vis a vis their security. > Remember when you'd find four different toolbars on IE that your friend/family/neighb…

> That seems like victim blaming to me. I think this is more like pretty good evidence that Microsoft has done a disservice to its users vis a vis their security.

I squarely blame developers/designers. Not just Microsoft, but Netscape with SSL, Android with app permissions and side-loading, etc.

There is this terrible historical concept that we can solve security issues with user education and work around design/deployment problems with security through obtuse user prompts.

>> Remember when you'd find four different toolbars on IE that your friend/family/neighbor had no idea how they got?

> Yeah. I fixed that problem by introducing them to Ubuntu and Firefox, not by cordoning off their ability to install applications of their choosing.

Sure, just as long as you keep in mind that Firefox extensions and Ubuntu snaps/universe/multiverse aren't vetted for malware. Plus Firefox extensions (like those toolbars of days past) can inspect all traffic and capture things like credit cards and passwords.

But hey, the user was notified that there was a risk and blindly hit OK - because it was the way to get the computer to do what they said they wanted the computer to do.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#248

Post by zapita »

eridius wrote: post #182
zapita wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be right... I think it's fair to say we're both guessing. To me it just doesn't seem logical to resort to such a "nuclear option" over a review disagreement, instead of just complying, negotiating, or at least working around the problem in a creative technical way. It's not like Telegram is changing in some fundamental way since the last review... What could Apple be telling Telegram that is such a massive…

A lot of companies do tend to reach for the "nuclear option" of crying to the press when getting rejected even though they haven't yet gone through all the steps of trying to resolve the issue privately. > What could Apple be telling Telegram that is such a massive showstopper? Good question. I don't know. There are a lot of possibilities here and it's impossible for us to know what without Telegram telling us the ac…

> > What could Apple be telling Telegram that is such a massive showstopper?

> Good question. I don't know. There are a lot of possibilities here

I can't think of any. Can you name one?

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#249

Post by eridius »

zapita wrote: post #248
eridius wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of companies do tend to reach for the "nuclear option" of crying to the press when getting rejected even though they haven't yet gone through all the steps of trying to resolve the issue privately. > What could Apple be telling Telegram that is such a massive showstopper? Good question. I don't know. There are a lot of possibilities here and it's impossible for us to know what without Telegram telling us the ac…

> > What could Apple be telling Telegram that is such a massive showstopper? > Good question. I don't know. There are a lot of possibilities here I can't think of any. Can you name one?

Telegram wants to introduce a feature where they request access to your address book, request access to your photo library, search your photo library using CoreML for photos that appear to be indecent, and start sending them to all of your contacts. Telegram is really adamant that this is an excellent feature and they refuse to remove it when Apple denies them over it.

Or probably something else. But you get the idea. Telegram could have tried to introduce behavior that violated Apple rules. Or they could have snuck existing rules violations past Apple in the past and Apple finally noticed.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#250

Post by askvictor »

bouvin wrote: post #204
askvictor wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a Mac you have the option of downloading and installing the app directly from the Internet rather than from the app store. On iOS you don't, so there is a clear difference.

My macOS Telegram updated, from the AppStore, 2018-05-31.

My point is that there is no point in blocking any updates on the MacOS appstore, as it can just be side-loaded.
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