China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power • Hacker News Board

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#241

Post by mygo » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #235

phyller wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we shouldn't try to help people in other countries until we are literally perfect? Or are you making the argument that the US government is in fact more oppressive than the Chinese government? The reality for the US is if it tries to take action to improve perceived injustices in the world, it is being hypocritical and "imperialist". If it does nothing, it is selfish and heartless, having the power to help but doi…

> So we shouldn't try to help people in other countries until we are literally perfect? You shouldn't try to help people in other countries, period. Who appointed you world cop? Besides, it always ends up in tears (besides it being hypocritical help with strategic ambitions attached from the establishment side, even if ordinary people mean it sincerely). > Or are you making the argument that the US government is in f…

>You shouldn't try to help people in other countries, period

So when oppressed people inside an imperfect country are pleading for help from another imperfect country which is capable of helping,

The country being begged to help should go “sorry, we’re imperfect, can’t help. Besides, even though you’re asking for our help and we can certainly help, we’re not the global police, so we can’t help you.”

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#242

Post by dagw » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 1:48 PM UTC

mygo wrote: post #241

coldtea wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So we shouldn't try to help people in other countries until we are literally perfect? You shouldn't try to help people in other countries, period. Who appointed you world cop? Besides, it always ends up in tears (besides it being hypocritical help with strategic ambitions attached from the establishment side, even if ordinary people mean it sincerely). > Or are you making the argument that the US government is in f…

>You shouldn't try to help people in other countries, period So when oppressed people inside an imperfect country are pleading for help from another imperfect country which is capable of helping, The country being begged to help should go “sorry, we’re imperfect, can’t help. Besides, even though you’re asking for our help and we can certainly help, we’re not the global police, so we can’t help you.”

There's help and there's help. Are we talking help as in sending temporary emergency relief after a natural disaster or famine or help as in ousting a democratically elected leader and replacing him with a puppet dictator?

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#243

Post by mygo » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #242

mygo wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You shouldn't try to help people in other countries, period So when oppressed people inside an imperfect country are pleading for help from another imperfect country which is capable of helping, The country being begged to help should go “sorry, we’re imperfect, can’t help. Besides, even though you’re asking for our help and we can certainly help, we’re not the global police, so we can’t help you.”

There's help and there's help. Are we talking help as in sending temporary emergency relief after a natural disaster or famine or help as in ousting a democratically elected leader and replacing him with a puppet dictator?

Ask the guy who said “You shouldn't try to help people in other countries, period” to clarify.

Side note, being democratically elected does not mean your country is a democracy. Hitler was democratically elected. Doesn’t change the fact that he consolidated power after the fact.

And interestingly enough China, the topic of this thread, is consolidating power. This week their administration has announced their plans to abolish presidential term limits, clearing way for their president to remain in power indefinitely.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#244

Post by rbp » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

ilamont wrote: post #139

ender89 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan has nothing to worry about. The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan, signed after WWII, basically means that Japan AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA are responsible to ensure the national security of Japan (It's actually mutual with the understanding that the Japanese constitution forbids deploying armed forces abroad). In other words, if china is actually aggressive tow…

Mutual defense treaties have a poor track record in the face of heavily armed, aggressive regimes playing up real or imagined injustices while undermining political and military obstacles. If the alliance is weak, disaster can result. Examples abound - Poland and France both had mutual defense treaties with various allies that failed when Germany invaded. In Japan's backyard, the Philippines lost territory in the Sou…

Minor quibble - UK entered WW2 because of their mutual defense treaty with Poland

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#245

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #234

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? No, these are simply USSR-style what-aboutisms that China has inherited.

Accusation of "what-aboutism" is the real BS cold-war trick (notice how it's also one-sided itself: it's an accusation against the other side of which the good people of our side are clear). It amounts to "put on blinders and follow your side when it accuses the other, and never see things in perspective". It generally means that only one side has the right to criticize (if the other side answers back, it's "whatabou…

There is nothing different from the above what aboutisms to the ones the USSR used, they are actually almost verbatim. China throws around logical fallacies (what aboutism, red herrings, slippery slopes) all the time, it makes me wonder if chinese high schools teach their positive use in rhetoric/debate classes.

I’m one of the first ones to criticize the USA, there is plenty that is wrong to talk about! But open up a thread that is critical of the USA and you’ll rarely see Americans bringing up problems in China, yet discussions about China almost always lead back to discussions about the USA! When china is ready to talk about its problems without referring to the USA, well, it will be ready to become a superpower. Right now they just come off as insecure.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#246

Post by mitchty » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 3:31 PM UTC

elago wrote: post #182

mitchty wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you believe a massively obese and sickly person telling you the importance of diet and exercise? Yes, they would be the ideal person to give that advice.

Dang, okay, that was a stupid analogy I made. It should have been something like "If you're obese and sickly, should you spend your time evangelizing the importance of diet and exercise to other unhealthy people instead of eating right and exercising yourself?" I don't think its even a good analogy anymore though. I get that 'what-aboutism' is a logical fallacy in general, and it can prevent beneficial action from ta…

Consider it simply that you should endeavor to take good advice no matter the source, even if they seem hypocritical.

Bruce Lee was right in this regard, take what works from wherever you can. Worrying about the messenger being biased can ignore a really good tree in an overall forest.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#247

Post by theandrewbailey » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #240

theandrewbailey wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> In the US, the current party in power is always on the verge of instituting totalitarianism. > And I'm pretty sure that you didn't mean it like people are taking it. That blanket absolutist statement is at best false, and is easily disproven with the current situation. Then the whole argument is undermined by the last paragraph about angering the social media mob.

"easily disproven with the current situation." If you mean that the current party isn't instituting totalitarianism, I would agree with that. Trump has taken more steps to put down government power than to pick it up. A totalitarian does not lower taxes, which is a form of government power, nor does he cut regulations, which is obviously a form of power. You can argue about the effectiveness, but there's no way to ar…

I understand that many people accuse Trump of being authoritarian. The American people have a very diverse range of viewpoints. Some group somewhere has always accused the sitting president of going out of bounds, being a fascist, going to take our guns away, etc.

I don't doubt that the social media mob is dangerous, but I perceive that it is mostly against the current US administration.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#248

Post by Rapzid » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 8:30 PM UTC

liberte82 wrote: post #120

ender89 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan has nothing to worry about. The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan, signed after WWII, basically means that Japan AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA are responsible to ensure the national security of Japan (It's actually mutual with the understanding that the Japanese constitution forbids deploying armed forces abroad). In other words, if china is actually aggressive tow…

If there's one thing we should have already learned from Trump, it's that treaties mean absolutely nothing if they don't meet US interests in realpolitik. All Trump has to do is start complaining about Japan "taking advantage of us" and before you know it, they'll be public enemy number one in his supporters' eyes.

Congress has the power to declare war.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#249

Post by aphextron » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 2:23 AM UTC

Slansitartop wrote: post #186

tonylinn80 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way Chinese government is supposed to work, is actually another form of democracy: People elect representatives to become "National People's Congress", which is supposed to have highest power in China, and decides who the president is going to be. The reality is that NPC do not have real power and the voting process to elect representatives are very flawed. However, if that actually work as designed, it's not ent…

The US Federal Government, as originally envisioned, had much less direct representation, with the House of Representatives being the only directly elected body. The Senate was elected by the State governments, the President by a group of directly-elected "electors," and the Supreme Court appointed/confirmed as it is now. The vulnerability of a democracy to a demagogue who would do things like run on a platform of "e…

> I don't really see a good democratic solution to it either, besides reversing course back towards a more decentralized republic with a weaker central government.

This is definitely the way things are moving towards in the US. We had gotten accustomed to a strong federal government during the 20th century as it had necessarily become extremely built up from world wars, massive infrastructure works, the cold war, etc. But as that whole world has faded away in the 21st century, we are seeing states assert their rights again. I'm talking specifically of California, where elected officials are openly defying federal authorities on certain issues like immigration and drug enforcement. The feds seem powerless to do anything since their is such overwhelming local support for these policies, and California is an economic powerhouse.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#250

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Mar 01, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

balthasar wrote: post #229

alsetmusic wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your lie is easily disproved with a bit of research and I encourage readers to do so. When you call someone a liar, the onus is on you to do the research and present your case for others. Asking everyone else to do the research doesn’t cut it. Your position should include citations that provide evidence that what you say is correct. What you have achieved here is essentially name-calling.

An unsubstantiated claim doesn't require a well researched counter. The suggestion to do research is just that a suggestion. I find that when dealing with posts written by people who are uninformed or have the intention of misinformation that it is important to point out that the issue is contested. If someone is lying then a bit of research will prove that and we can all be in agreement. If the subject isn't worth b…

There is a rather large difference between "your claim is wrong" and "you are lying". Feel free to state that my claim is wrong. If I didn't supply evidence, feel free to state without evidence that my claim is wrong. (Evidence talks louder than non-evidence, though, so if you supply some, that's a better refutation than simply saying that I was wrong.)

Saying that someone is lying is different. That's an attack on their character. You should do that very rarely, and only where you are sure. (Even better, only where you can prove that they are deliberately lying. Yes, that's a very high bar. Yes, that's how rarely you should make that charge.)