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China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

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Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#231

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Passthepeas wrote: post #145
mygo wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s amazing to me that the argument of “don’t go after those guys for what they are doing when those other guys are doing bad things too” never dies. Even with all of its blatant fallacy. It will persist until the end of time. And solve nothing.

I think it does more to illustrate hypocrisy and priorities than anything; it's like worrying about another driver's flat tire, when your own car is literally on fire. Though I do understand and agree with your overall sentiment.

Huh? No, these are simply USSR-style what-aboutisms that China has inherited.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#232

Post by gigatexal »

gautamdivgi wrote: post #160
gigatexal wrote: post #17

I hope that in my lifetime we see a revolution in China that overthrows the current authoritarian state and things like the great firewall and quasi-private/state run agencies go the way of the dodo bird. Unfortunately I don't see big American companies doing anything but continuing to court China and their growing class of wealthy consumers.

I have expat friends in China. I don’t think there is a perception of oppression amongst the population. If anything China has made some serious gains in the well being of its citizens. I would say the Chinese have different priorities. Calling for a revolution in a country of 1 billion people is asking for a human catastrophe.

A country that willfully removes traces of its history (tianamen(?) square) or references to law that presidents have two term maximums? Your friend sounds oblivious.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#233

Post by coldtea »

mygo wrote: post #127
coldtea wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. This is perhaps because of several things: 1) That's the way "the rest of the world's" governments and corporate interests want their own countries to go, and have been pushing towards since decades. The rest of the world's leaders (most of them) could not care less for the lip service they p…

It’s amazing to me that the argument of “don’t go after those guys for what they are doing when those other guys are doing bad things too” never dies. Even with all of its blatant fallacy. It will persist until the end of time. And solve nothing.

>It’s amazing to me that the argument of “don’t go after those guys for what they are doing when those other guys are doing bad things too” never dies.

Actually the argument is more like: bad guys shouldn't go after bad guys. It's hypocritical, self-serving in the name of some "cause", and creates worse outcomes.

You know, like a bad guy going in to bring "democracy" (assert control for strategic interests and/or ensure cheap oil and favorable currency use) and ends up in chaos, civil war, fundamentalism, and refugee waves. Time and again.

But I guess hypocrisy never dies. Even with all of its blatant fallacy. It will persist until the end of time. And solve nothing.

As for good guys, they can go after the bad guys all they want, and we'll even cheer for them.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#234

Post by coldtea »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #231
Passthepeas wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it does more to illustrate hypocrisy and priorities than anything; it's like worrying about another driver's flat tire, when your own car is literally on fire. Though I do understand and agree with your overall sentiment.

Huh? No, these are simply USSR-style what-aboutisms that China has inherited.

Accusation of "what-aboutism" is the real BS cold-war trick (notice how it's also one-sided itself: it's an accusation against the other side of which the good people of our side are clear).

It amounts to "put on blinders and follow your side when it accuses the other, and never see things in perspective".

It generally means that only one side has the right to criticize (if the other side answers back, it's "whataboutism") -- and that third parties shouldn't call bot the pot and kettle black (it's whataboutism to even mention the pot), and instead should listen to the pot accusing the kettle of blackness.

Even worse when it's not bloody business of the pot what the kettle does -- but they want to make it so anyway, because they like to boss other kitchen implements around.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#235

Post by coldtea »

phyller wrote: post #187
elago wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US citizen it is a valid argument because those "other guys" is our own country. It's not "don't go after those guys", but "take care of our own problems first". This way, when offering solutions to other oppressive countries we wouldn't look like hypocrites. Would you believe a massively obese and sickly person telling you the importance of diet and exercise?

So we shouldn't try to help people in other countries until we are literally perfect? Or are you making the argument that the US government is in fact more oppressive than the Chinese government? The reality for the US is if it tries to take action to improve perceived injustices in the world, it is being hypocritical and "imperialist". If it does nothing, it is selfish and heartless, having the power to help but doi…

>So we shouldn't try to help people in other countries until we are literally perfect?

You shouldn't try to help people in other countries, period. Who appointed you world cop? Besides, it always ends up in tears (besides it being hypocritical help with strategic ambitions attached from the establishment side, even if ordinary people mean it sincerely).

>Or are you making the argument that the US government is in fact more oppressive than the Chinese government?

Internally, not. Globally, surely yes.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#236

Post by coldtea »

mitchty wrote: post #153
elago wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US citizen it is a valid argument because those "other guys" is our own country. It's not "don't go after those guys", but "take care of our own problems first". This way, when offering solutions to other oppressive countries we wouldn't look like hypocrites. Would you believe a massively obese and sickly person telling you the importance of diet and exercise?

> Would you believe a massively obese and sickly person telling you the importance of diet and exercise? Yes, they would be the ideal person to give that advice.

Would you want McDonalds to give dietary advice, while at the same time pushing burgers and fries down the world's throat?

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#237

Post by [deleted] »

ilamont wrote: post #18

I have one Chinese friend who employs a double entendre, calling him "Xitler" In all seriousness, this is a black period for Chinese people and China's neighbors. The fledgling democracy in Hong Kong, and democratic nations around China's periphery including Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, and India should be very wary dealing with a strongman who will stop at nothing to further his power and nationalism-focused legacy.

[deleted]

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#238

Post by [deleted] »

ender89 wrote: post #106
ilamont wrote: post #18

I have one Chinese friend who employs a double entendre, calling him "Xitler" In all seriousness, this is a black period for Chinese people and China's neighbors. The fledgling democracy in Hong Kong, and democratic nations around China's periphery including Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, and India should be very wary dealing with a strongman who will stop at nothing to further his power and nationalism-focused legacy.

Japan has nothing to worry about. The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan, signed after WWII, basically means that Japan AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA are responsible to ensure the national security of Japan (It's actually mutual with the understanding that the Japanese constitution forbids deploying armed forces abroad). In other words, if china is actually aggressive tow…

[deleted]

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#239

Post by mygo »

coldtea wrote: post #233
mygo wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s amazing to me that the argument of “don’t go after those guys for what they are doing when those other guys are doing bad things too” never dies. Even with all of its blatant fallacy. It will persist until the end of time. And solve nothing.

> It’s amazing to me that the argument of “don’t go after those guys for what they are doing when those other guys are doing bad things too” never dies. Actually the argument is more like: bad guys shouldn't go after bad guys. It's hypocritical, self-serving in the name of some "cause", and creates worse outcomes. You know, like a bad guy going in to bring "democracy" (assert control for strategic interests and/or en…

Fallacy.

Bad guys can go after bad guys. Good guys can still go after the remaining bad guys.

If we sit around waiting for he without sin to cast the stones, if on the off-chance that such a rare soul exists, then that small army-of-one will be outnumbered and overpowered and neutralized.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#240

Post by jerf »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #198
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you're getting downvoted for this line: > In the US, the current party in power is always on the verge of instituting totalitarianism. And I'm pretty sure that you didn't mean it like people are taking it. Let's start with, I don't know, FDR. He was on the verge of implementing totalitarianism. Really! Just ask the Republicans of 1933! Clinton was. So was Bush. So was Obama. So is Trump. Or so some vocal mi…

>> In the US, the current party in power is always on the verge of instituting totalitarianism. > And I'm pretty sure that you didn't mean it like people are taking it. That blanket absolutist statement is at best false, and is easily disproven with the current situation. Then the whole argument is undermined by the last paragraph about angering the social media mob.

"easily disproven with the current situation."

If you mean that the current party isn't instituting totalitarianism, I would agree with that. Trump has taken more steps to put down government power than to pick it up. A totalitarian does not lower taxes, which is a form of government power, nor does he cut regulations, which is obviously a form of power. You can argue about the effectiveness, but there's no way to argue that into an increase in power.

If you mean that nobody is accusing Trump of being totalitarian... I have no idea how you could possibly have that impression. Google "Trump" and "authoritarian" together and start reading.

And if you don't fear the social media mob, poke them and see how you like it. Talk is cheap; prove you aren't afraid of them, and that you get away with it, and I'll reconsider.

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