Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday • Hacker News Board

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#241

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #206

petre wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder where the money for the difference comes from? Taxes. Also German economy is pretty solid since they're a net exporter at the expense of the rest of the EU. This modern welfare system wouldn't work in France, let alone Southern Europe.

Yes it comes from taxes, where else. There is no reason German union rules wouldn't work elsewhere. But I believe other companies simply do not want it. They want to delegate to the workers what they want with little feedback. German companies take worker feedback into the cost and rate of production. Therefor, no one is surprised. Workers no what they are expected to produce and management knows what to expect from…

[deleted]

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#242

Post by aperetti » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:29 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #191

09094920394314 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still FUD, it just means some unions are corrupt. Or maybe more whataboutism. Imagine if we all (and not just the left) talked about companies the same way we talk about unions, using the countless examples of managerial abuse, wage theft etc. as examples. Would you say that would be reasonable? And preemptively, this is not a "both sides" question either. Everything is grey, but there are shades of grey. And wh…

Maybe 'not all unions' but several very large unions are responsible for some massive, fundamental problems we have today. E.g., cities are going bankrupt in large part tied to unions. I don't think it counts as FUD; even if 'not all unions', I think we have identified issues with the union structure that no one knows yet how to resolve, that will come back if unions come back. It's like trying to argue 'not all cops…

Do we really want to talk about unions bankrupting cities without addressing the corporations? The corps who lobbied for free trade, which opened up the labor market to the world and required Americans to complete with 3rd world level wages?

Then, when Americans did not want to compete with rural Chinese farmers pay, those corporations abandoned the area? Leaving cities with huge infrastructure bills and a large population? None of these issue develop in a vacuum. They are complex.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#243

Post by srtjstjsj » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #113

tw04 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This pattern isn't as simple to dismiss as "anti-union FUD", especially since it's seen among people who are already union members in closed shops. You act as though anti-union FUD can't affect members. That's kind of ridiculous... if it didn't affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point? If I'm a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hea…

> You act as though anti-union FUD can't affect members. That's kind of ridiculous... if it didn't affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point? If I'm a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hear that unions just take my money while providing no benefit, I'm probably likely to be swayed. What's the union going to do? Tell me about how 50 y…

The point is that whether you are pro- or anti-, your opinion doesn't carry well-informed weight unless you've seen the world both with- and with-out.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#244

Post by c3534l » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #61

brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

It’s not FUD when you literally have unions such as ones for police who fight tooth and nail to keep bad employees working there. Sure, that’s what a union is supposed to do, but there needs to be a line, and no one wants to define it.

My favorite was when Twinkies employees went on strike for higher wages, which made the company go out of business. Turns out management wasn't lying when they said they couldn't afford higher wages. The problem with unions is that their interests don't necessarily line up with the company's or even the employees for that matter.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#245

Post by srtjstjsj » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #63

brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

> The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages It's way more complicated than that, and it can't simply be dismissed as a "FUD campaign". Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Similarly,…

> . Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws,

And non-union members are disproportionately likely to support things like closed-shop laws.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#246

Post by eru » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:37 PM UTC

Joeboy wrote: post #218

eru wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on what you mean by 'entitled'? In an ideal world we'd all have ponies, but in reality there's still scarcity so we have to ration resources one way or another. (And then whatever rationing system we use interacts with human incentives and lots of other systems.)

> Depends on what you mean by 'entitled'? I'm not sure it does. I can't think of a reasonable definition whereby I consider an average software developer to be more entitled to a decent life than a tube driver.

The definition that has one 'entitled' to whatever one can get in a voluntary exchange of goods and services?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#247

Post by mrighele » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:37 PM UTC

azernik wrote: post #233

mrighele wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will try a summary translation for you (I can't claim to be perfect, it is more union-speak than Italian :-) ): The issues that the unions are complaining about are: * Need for increased wages: the current wages follow the minimum required by the CCNL (national collective contract)[ ], but working condition are worse than usual: pauseless working shifts, higher productivity required, night shifts spread all year lo…

So basically, they're saying Amazon is straight up lying about their wages being the highest in the sector.

According to a link that someone else posted [1] (Sorry but it's in Italian), they get about 1200 EUR/month (this is net income after taxes, compulsory health insurance and retirement fees). I guess that Amazon is applying the national contract for the commerce sector [2] (PDF, this too in Italian) and the amount is supposed to be about 1250 EUR (you should consider the lower amount, which is what probably applies to a regular warehouse worker with little experience and no management responsability).

So from what I understand, the union is right in stating that Amazon's pay is not above the national contract.

Keep in mind that there are a number of tricks that can be used in order not the pay the official amount. For example, if you are hired as an apprentice the pay is lower. You can not be apprentice for more than 3 years, but the system can be abused, especially if the turnover is quite high. So in a way Amazon also is right when it says that it pays above average.

But in my opinion the salary is not the main issue, if what is said about the working conditions is true (not only in Italy, but also Germany and the US), those should be fixed because I think they are not healthy.

[1] http://www.lastampa.it/2017/03/14/edizioni/vercelli/qui-ad-a... [2] https://www.cifaitalia.it/index.php?option=com_attachments&t...

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#248

Post by srtjstjsj » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:39 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #148

tw04 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This pattern isn't as simple to dismiss as "anti-union FUD", especially since it's seen among people who are already union members in closed shops. You act as though anti-union FUD can't affect members. That's kind of ridiculous... if it didn't affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point? If I'm a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hea…

>For the average joe who just wants to go to work and get a paycheck, the bigger picture is often lost. Isn't it possible the armchair talking heads like us are the ones missing the bigger picture and the actual workers are the ones who actually get it? Let's consider the Boeing workers in South Carolina: - 2009-09 74% of employees vote against the union and decertify it[1] - 2009-10 Boeing breaks ground on new South…

All you are showing is that management has power over labor when the labor force isn't closed-shop. Management hired scabs from SC to bust the union in WA.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#249

Post by srtjstjsj » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:45 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #211

lfischer wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do multiple competing unions happen in the same workplace happen in the US ? As far as I have seen, that seems fairly common in the countries where I have lived (Europe only). And are there some cross-category unions (where workers in different areas and jobs are members of the same overarching organization, which sometimes organizes nation-wide demonstrations or even strikes)?

> Do multiple competing unions happen in the same workplace happen in the US ? No, and that's basically by law. Unions lobbied (successfully) for laws which grant them permanent, exclusive access to the bargaining unit once 50% + 1 vote in favor of it. Pretty much the only cases where you'd have separate unions are where they're representing different types of workers altogether (ie, nurses vs janitors) or when they'…

This is the main problem. Unionization is a valuable tool, but a monopoly held by one union is as bad as any other monopoly. The monopolist union is infringing on the freedoms of the members who want to choose better representation.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#250

Post by vkou » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 9:47 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #92

Joeboy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy available to them. £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London. Not if you consider it the kind of job where you should be able to afford luxuries like a family, a car, a mortgage, saving for retirement etc. It probably does sound like a lot to people who live outside London and / or aren't considering those thing…

> £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London It's more than the typical software engineer can expect to make in London. Source: Glassdoor, Indeed, talking to colleagues who live in London, and my own memories from my last job search.

And why should a software engineer in a comfy desk job be entitled to a higher wage then a tube worker?

All the software engineers in London could quit tomorrow, and life would largely go on. All the tube workers could quit tomorrow, and the city would quickly grind to a halt.