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Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

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Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#241

Post by psyc »

matwood wrote: post #224
psyc wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't be sure yet, but I'm starting to be concerned. I turned 40 recently. My current job search has lasted about 5x longer than any previous job search. I've been turned down for nonsensical reasons, such as not having enough experience in a specific language that I have a lot of experience in. (That was an assertion by the interviewer, not the result of technical questioning.) I've been interviewed several times…

> I'll give a detailed answer than I know to be correct and insightful, and they'll say it's wrong Wow, do you have an example?

The worst example was as follows. I've been a 3D engine programmer for >15 years. I was a senior engine programmer at EA, and shipped very famous things. Recently I was interviewed by two recent college grads, who asked me to summarize the rendering pipeline. I did so. Their feedback was that I "failed to demonstrate expertise."

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#242

Post by donovanm »

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #186
allengeorge wrote: post #73

I suspect there are a couple of reasons - especially in the newer/startup space: * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. And they've probably a lot more personal financial responsibilities. All told, they're unlikely to go for the same salary as a new grad. * Interview process. Anecdotal experience, but, the interview p…

As an employer in the "newer/startup space", I have some thoughts on this: > * Salary. Older employees are more experienced, but, just as importantly, they've already job-hopped a bit, so their base is a lot higher. First of all, why does job hopping entitle you to a higher salary? A guy who's done 5 jobs of 2 years each, with one of them being most relevant to my position, vs. someone who's done 1 job of 10 years so…

It has nothing to do with job hoppers deserving more money, it's more that companies don't typically pay those who stick around as well. The job hopper would be more likely to already be making more money, therefore he'd have more leverage going into negotiations. The likelihood that you'd spend ten years specializing in something that is exactly what lots of companies need at the moment is fairly low, especially in an industry where the churn of technologies is high. It's more likely that they'd have ten years experience in a dated technology.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#243

Post by matwood »

purplethinking wrote: post #155
toyg wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like living without car is very difficult to pull off in suburban UK, I can’t even begin to imagine how one could do it in places like US or Australia. We have one car and already it limits our opportunities and the ones of our children so much that we’ve been discussing getting another for years. I’m sure I could save more (we do eat out a bit), but nowhere near 60% of income. You must be making waaaay mor…

The trick is to not live in the suburbs if you can avoid it. They're money-sucking black holes :) I know it hurts to hear, since having a house and a back yard is part of the western dream, or having grown up in that environment we even feel entitled to it. We imagine our children will be emotionally scarred if they don't get their backyard, but the truth is it reflects more on our own preference than our kids. Long…

> The trick is to not live in the suburbs if you can avoid it. They're money-sucking black holes

Interesting considering living in the city with anywhere near the same quality of life of living 5-10 miles away will cost 2-3x more money.

Outside of money, I'd much rather sit in my backyard and look at the marsh/water over seeing some drunk/high person passed out in front of my house.

I see you're in Europe which, based on my travels, is a much more city friendly place. Public transportation options are good, services are good, and based on my limited research there are still decent city apartments for reasonable prices. One day I play to live in Europe for a period of time and it will definitely be in a city.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#244

Post by dabockster »

curtis wrote: post #234
twblalock wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most recruiters are going to look at your LinkedIn profile, and they won't do the digging to find your resume unless they like your LinkedIn profile. That's just the way it is, whether you think there is an excuse for it or not. You're only hurting yourself by refusing to spruce up your LinkedIn profile.

> and they won't do the digging to find your resume unless they like your LinkedIn profile Yes, and that's a big part of my point. This is an actual problem, and we (the software development industry) should try to fix it. Or at least make it suck less. When I switched to applying through AngelList I had much better luck, and that's how I got my current job. Part of that is that early mode startups are picky about ot…

Question about AngelList, did you bother with their built-in coding challenge that they are pushing? Or did you just start applying?

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#245

Post by cyclonetiger »

I find so many things wrong with this article.

This is coming from Indeed, which is a job searching site. I think its fair to infer that younger people would always look for jobs more than older people since younger people are just getting out of college and/or trying to figure out what really interests them by job hopping. I would imagine an older developer that has already his/her interests figured out, and has a network built out would visit a site like Indeed less.

I'm only 26, so you would think that I'm the "prime" years of my career, but I work for a large enterprise tech company, where I'm the only one under 40 on my team. I would say the average age overall is around 40 for the people that sit around me. They all seem to like place they work, and much more relaxed about their career future compared to me or my friends that are still deciding what we want to do.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#246

Post by wpietri »

humanrebar wrote: post #143
wpietri wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stability in titles requires stability in human labor. But our whole job is automation, meaning turning stable labor over to machines. So much of our work is defined by our current perspectives, our current constructed tools; those naturally change too. I think it will be quite a while before things in our field settle down, if they ever do. My dad made software for decades until he retired. My brother and I have bee…

I agree with all that. I think it's already happening, too. You can be a "test engineer" or work in "quality assurance" and get pigeonholed easily. But one person's pigeonhole is another person's dream 9-5 job. I don't see a harm in labelling the expectations that are already there. I think there's wisdom in waiting for established roles before defining them. "Container engineer" is too specific or at least too early…

If something seems stable enough to try to make a career around, sure, nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying there's very little for which that is true. 40 years ago was 1977. You can find the help wanted ads here:

https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1977/10/23/iss... (p 370-395 or so)

The ads I can find there include Computer Console Operator ("must be able to operate 370/145 and 370/418 under DOS/VS with power"), Network Control Analyst ("3 yrs exp troubleshooting lines, modems, and multiplexors"), Keypunch Operator. Programmer and Programmer Analyst positions requiring COBOL, RPG II, Fortran IV, and a lot of assembler. And IBM was its own job category.

And relational DBA is a great example. That used to be a serious job, one with prestige and promise. People were even specific about vendors; one was an Oracle DBA or a Sybase DBA. But now that's in decline. These days programmers are supposed to understand data migrations and transactional thinking. The notion of submitting requests to the DBA department worked in the days of 6-18 month release cycles, but not today. Relational databases themselves are commoditized, going from a central technology to a peripheral one. Does Google even have a relational database running anywhere these days?

Basically the only job title that has lasted is programmer, and even that has changed almost beyond recognition. Maybe we've now plateaued, and jobs will be stable for the next 40 years. But I doubt it. "Virtual server" is a phrase like "radio with pictures" or "horseless carriage". Its a sign that we know things are changing, but we don't know where they're going yet.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#247

Post by curtis »

dabockster wrote: post #244
curtis wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and they won't do the digging to find your resume unless they like your LinkedIn profile Yes, and that's a big part of my point. This is an actual problem, and we (the software development industry) should try to fix it. Or at least make it suck less. When I switched to applying through AngelList I had much better luck, and that's how I got my current job. Part of that is that early mode startups are picky about ot…

Question about AngelList, did you bother with their built-in coding challenge that they are pushing? Or did you just start applying?

I just started applying. And I applied to pretty much every open position in Seattle for which I was remotely qualified.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#248

Post by matwood »

fsloth wrote: post #66

The best insurance against age is to find some domain, and excel at that. At 40, it's not so good if your top claim in CV is "I know C++ in an out". "I was part of a team delivering product X, Y and Z which produced this much revenue for our company and which provided this and this value to our clients. I'm experienced contributor in domain W, and am comfortable in providing value using technologies A and B." is much…

> "I know C++ in an out".

I know what you mean, but this was a bad example. People who really know c++ are having to turn jobs down right now. Fintech is all over my c++ acquaintances.

Your advice about clear economic terms is spot on for resumes at any age. You have to link to numbers and then try to link to dollars.

"Developed a Python API for reporting." -- boring

"Developed a Python API that handled X amount of data, with Y amount of request/s and delivered Z reports/month that in turn saved/made the company $U/year." -- this checks the tech boxes and the managers/owners box of dollars delivered.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#249

Post by nsxwolf »

cjsuk wrote: post #55
code4tee wrote: post #15

Startups and such typically don’t want young people because their smarter, it’s because their more gullible career wise. Sure some people get a bit stale with age but some also get far far smarter and their experience can be very valuable. “Hey guys we have no business plan or customers, but please pull a few more all nighters to finish this bit of code.” 22 year old living with 5 roommates is like “yes sure, whateve…

Exactly this. I’ve always been the “I’m outta here” guy. Never been wrong. I actually worked for a startup a number of years ago and quit after two hours. A big chunk of the startup industry is preying on the gullible.

What made you decide to quit after 2 hours?

I'm trying to imagine something. It would have to be along the lines of "CEO exposed himself to me in the stairwell".

Anything else I'd probably give it the benefit of the doubt until the end of the day at least.

Re: Tech workers worry about age discrimination at age 40: Study

#250

Post by bitsnbytes »

sotojuan wrote: post #233
bitsnbytes wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I am 23 (started working in programming at 22) and this view confuses me. I don't want to sound rude but... you didn't have hobbies? Friends? Partner? Errands to run? Non-work programming projects? Even when I was single and lived alone, I had plenty of reasons to leave after 8 hours." When I was 23 I had a very active fun social life as you appear to have as well. BTW I had the same opinions as you at that age as w…

Good point in differentiating between optional and required activities. I definitely think it is more important for a father or mother to work reasonable hours than someone like me. I just don't like the attitude some companies have that because I am 23 I have nothing to do so of course I'll work longer than I need to.

Agreed and I didn't mean to suggest your time is any less valuable , its at that age you have more freedom to decide what is a priority when it comes to optional time allocation and flexibility to shuffle the time.

BTW companies especially the big ones will push you as far as your demographics or industry will allow them too. Their priority is too push the "what is acceptable line" furthest as possible to save that dollar. The smart ones know better of the consequences, but most are too focused on the quick savings.

BTW when I stayed late or worked for free it was never for the benefit of the company. It was always for my benefit as I was never under the illusion that any company considered me more important than their bottom line. I viewed giving away my free time as an investment on my part to get experience in something that benefited me in the end.

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