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Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

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Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#241
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was limited, we saw this by Comcast with Netflix back in 2014. This was due to a peering dispute with Cogent over link saturation and maintenance costs, not Comcast throttling Netflix traffic. Netflix ended up peering directly with Comcast in order to bypass Cogent's bottlenecked links. Neutrality regulations have jack-all to do with peering mutual maintenance agreements.

> Neutrality regulations have jack-all to do with peering mutual maintenance agreements. Can you please write more about this, or provide some links where I can learn more? I don't feel I have an understanding of how peering would change under proposed net neutrality rules. Particularly, I am curious about the claim that "[Comcast was not throttling Netflix traffic]". Under the proposed FCC rules, would it be claimed…

> I don't feel I have an understanding of how peering would change under proposed net neutrality rules.

tl;dr: I don't think the neutrality end of the rules would change peering at all, and peering disputes are never grounded in the kinds of things that neutrality seeks to protect. Title II classification permits the FCC to arbitrate peering disputes, which is a desirable side effect for people who just want to watch Netflix without buffering, but doesn't make it a neutrality issue.

Longer version:

Netflix reached Comcast customers through a third-party transit provider named Cogent. Cogent and Comcast have their networks connected together, and Netflix's volume of traffic was such that the links from Cogent -> Comcast became saturated, resulting in congestion and traffic issues for Comcast customers trying to get their packets from Netflix to their Comcast line. Non-Netflix traffic on this same link degraded, as well - but Netflix was the lion's share of the traffic, and online video tends to be more visibly sensitive to congestion issues than most other forms of traffic, so Netflix became the poster child for the problem.

Cogent and Comcast had a settlement-free peering agreement, broadly meaning that they agreed to exchange traffic with one another without charging for it, and with each side reasonably contributing to maintaining its end of the link. I'm remembering the details vaguely, but IIRC, Comcast claimed that the agreement's settlement-free status depended on maintenance of a roughly equal exchange ratio - traffic in from Cogent to Comcast should be appropriately balanced with traffic out from Comcast over Cogent. Netflix in particular skewed the ratio hard such that traffic in massively outweighed traffic out.

Historically, settlement-free peering agreements included provisions (or at least an understanding) that each party would built out their half of link capacity necessary to handle the exchanged traffic. As demand goes up, each party is responsible for contributing to the link's overall capacity. Comcast's claim was that Cogent's traffic ratios were so out of whack that Cogent should pay for the link upgrade. Cogent refused to pay for the link upgrade, citing the settlement-free nature of the peering relationship. Since nothing got upgraded, the link remained saturated in the face of increasing demand, until Netflix got tired of Comcast and Cogent slap-fighting and peered directly with Comcast, so they could deliver their bits directly to Comcast's customers without having to go through a transit provider (they had previously had similar issues with Level3, another transit provider). As I understand it, Cogent has a reputation for abusing traffic balances to offer cut-rate transit - they have a long and storied history of fierce peering disputes with a large number of peers, which makes me somewhat sympathetic to Comcast's position in this case (ick!)

So, as I understand it, Comcast was "throttling Netflix traffic" in the same way that a straw throttles nitrogen flow when you blow air through it - that is, traffic (air) was congested and limited, but it wasn't limited because it was Netflix (nitrogen) traffic, it was limited because the link was saturated (the straw was full of air), and it didn't really matter if it was Netflix or email or porn or what - if it went over that link, it was subject to routing issues. It's my non-expert, non-legal opinion that Comcast wouldn't be in violation because the Open Internet Order applies to a company's management of its own network, not of the interconnection points between networks, and because link saturation is not "impair[ment] or degrad[ation of] lawful Internet traffic on the basis of content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices". As long as all packets are congested equally, it's still being treated neutrally!

It's my opinion that Comcast absolutely was using Netflix's traffic as a bargaining chip to try to force Cogent into paying for the upgrade. Whether that was justified or not is a lot more nuanced than "omg, Comcast is blocking my Netflix, they must be evil!", though. As pertains to the regulations, Title II classification does grant the FCC the authority to step into peering disputes and take action if it deems a company's actions in a peering dispute to not be "just and reasonable", and would have allowed the FCC to step in and slap one party into compliance, thereby fixing the issue. That isn't a neutrality issue, though, and I'm not all that sure that Comcast would have been the losing party in an FCC mediation of the dispute.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#242
Forgive me as a European but are there companies who oppose net neutrality? As in are there HN readers who work for them? If so, who are they and what are their reasons? Is the issue like same sex marriage where the only opposition is so laughably out of date or are there nuances?

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. That was the point I guess. Sometimes it seems easier to communicate something by stating the opposite and let people work out themselves why this is a bad idea.

work out. oh you sad fuck

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Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There would be no time. He literally has a phone on the desk that he can launch all the nukes in a few minutes notice, and NOBODY can stop him without illegally refusing to follow orders (hope to god they would obviously) but assuming everything works as designed the world would end.

Not exactly true. There is a two man rule to launch. On paper the president has the power, but there are extensive safeguards in place.

AFAIK the two man rule is to prevent a rogue soldier from launching, they have no authority to question orders from the president.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#246
post #80
post #19

If Google were actually serious about Net Neutrality, they would use their insane market power to protect it. How? Well, a simple statement saying "any ISP who abuses net neutrality will have their customers cut off from Google products". No Google search, no YouTube, no Gmail. Have those requests instead redirect to a website telling the customer what their ISP is doing, why Google won't work with them, and how to c…

I love this idea because I read too much cyberpunk. Why doesn't Twitter flex its muscle and cause a national crisis by tweeting "watch out China, nukes are coming" from Donald Trump's Twitter? That ruins trust in the platform, but what if they just banned the US president's account for TOS or something? Enormous amount of power. What if Musk's first ship to Mars had a hidden Railgun on it? "Anybody else that wants to…

> I love this idea because I read too much cyberpunk

"go on..."

> What if Musk's first ship to Mars had a hidden Railgun on it?

"oh god... don't stop!"

> ... the secret passcode of another person ...

brilliant.

yeah... we (in the US) gave AI/meta-cognative-entities/"corporations" a type of inalienable right with the Citizens United ruling. and now the gov't is going to find out what happens when those entities start testing the boundaries of their container. (plot twist: the container walls are permeable)

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#247
post #191
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love this idea because I read too much cyberpunk. Why doesn't Twitter flex its muscle and cause a national crisis by tweeting "watch out China, nukes are coming" from Donald Trump's Twitter? That ruins trust in the platform, but what if they just banned the US president's account for TOS or something? Enormous amount of power. What if Musk's first ship to Mars had a hidden Railgun on it? "Anybody else that wants to…

> I love this idea because I read too much cyberpunk. Can you recommend some novels ? (I'm also a cyberpunk nerd) Thanks in advance

Hardwired

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need a new term and perhaps a visceral, easily understandable metaphor. Common Joe just doesn't get it or know what we're talking about. He instantly gets "death panel" or "fake news." But net neutrality sounds like something fuzzy almost benign.

The ever popular 'Free Choice/Freedom' angle? Removal of Net Neutrality ensures that the ISP gets to decide what the consumer watches. 'Don't let them tell you what to watch!' (followed by horrified alpha males watching Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman on Youtube or whatever else passes for horrifying nowadays.)

How dare you imply that Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman was horrible!

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#249
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no safeguard in place that could prevent such a course of action if it were attempted I can tell you for certain that there are dozens of safeguards. That scenario not only isn't possible, it's not plausible. Yes the President has the "codes" but those codes don't launch the missiles [1]. The scenario described is one in which there are literally nuclear warheads on a ballistic t…

Radiolab did an episode recently[1] which disagrees with that Bloomberg article. They interview ex-Secretary of Defense William Perry asking him what controls there are, if any, on a crazy president just willy-nilly deciding to nuke something. He says there's absolutely none, even if the president is in a room full of people who vehemently disagree with him he alone makes the call to launch. 1. http://www.radiolab.or…

the Gov has a vested interest in other Govs believing that the president's button can do a thing. i'm not sure who to trust...

but I did learn the word "Verisimilitude" the other day.

Re: Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Internet

#250

It's disingenuous for big business to try to frame this as a grassroots movement for freedom on the internet when they were completely silent about illegal NSA spying. The only difference between NSA spying and losing net neutrality is that without net neutrality their profits might be threatened.

As a fellow non American all I can do is twiddle my thumbs. Perhaps if they addressed how we allies could assist and help that would be great, but it does indeed feel like a parochial dispute which we are not invited to take part but have to hear the shouts nonetheless
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