Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#241

Post by LyndsySimon » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:32 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #11

They had female fighter pilots in world war 2 and the first female astronauts. That was long before anybody in the west could even think of that possibility. Not sure if it's a Russian thing or communism. East Germany also had more female engineers and scientists.

> They had female fighter pilots in world war 2 and the first female astronauts.

Not just fighter pilots, but bombers/CAS as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Witches

They also employed female snipers, who were very effective in that role. For example, Lyudmila Pavlichenko is one of the most successful and decorated snipers in military history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#242

Post by avdicius » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:33 PM UTC

The article totally misses the point. It just picks a single area and wonders why in this particular area women and men are more equal in Russia than in the West. By asking such a narrow question you will never get the right answer. The right answer is that in Russia there is more gender equality in general and therefore in every particular area too.

For instance, from a women-in-business study it follows that the proportion of female-ocuppied senior management positions in Russia is 47% while in the US it's 23% and in UK it's 19%.

https://www.grantthornton.global/en/insights/articles/women-...

A quote from it:

"Eastern Europe continues to top the rankings (see figure 3), with Russia in the lead as the only country in which every business has a woman on its senior leadership team. In Poland, the proportion of senior roles held by women has improved by six percent to 40%. The region owes some of its strong performance to the legacy of communist principles which have placed women as equals for generations."

Of course, such a conclusion goes against the main-stream narrative of communism being all about abuse and human rights violations while the West being the undisputed champion of human rights. So the BBC article just have to provide the following paragraph:

"While Russia is doing something right, it's still not there yet in terms of gender parity."

What is this about? Nothing. Whatever the subject is BBC must retain some reservations about Russia however unsubstantiated they are.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#243

Post by k-mcgrady » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:35 PM UTC

omikun wrote: post #228

k-mcgrady wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's not only Russia, either, which I find to be a bizarre point of focus here. I find female colleagues are far more likely to be from India, China, or Taiwan than any western nation. Where are you currently based? In the UK (and this is a BBC article) I don't see many (or any really) female tech workers from the countries you mention but lots from Russia and easter Europe.

Not the parent but I have worked for half a dozen tech companies around the US and they're mostly Indian/Chinese/White.

Thanks, I would have assumed that (and wasn't disputing it). I was just trying to point out to the parent that his experience may not apply everywhere and considering it's a BBC article the UK perspective might be useful to understand why their focus is Russia and not those other nations.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#244

Post by bigtimeidiot » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:35 PM UTC

Pharylon wrote: post #126

SilverSlash wrote: post #15

Maybe because like men all over the world, Russian women aren't specially "encouraged" to go into tech? Maybe nobody has to tell them or tell anyone to 'like science'. People just do. The same argument goes for women in science. Albert Einstein was told he wouldn't amount to much. Doesn't mean he 'got discouraged' and quit physics. That's not why we do science - for public appreciation - we do it because we love it n…

Yes, because each one of us is an island, and we're not influenced by society at all as it is. I have a two year old and I can tell you fighting against pinky-princess girl culture is a battle. As a parent, it's you vs basically the rest of society that sends a million little cues about what girls are supposed to do. I had this conversation with my daughter the other morning: Daughter: I want to be a boy when I grow…

>that sends a million little cues about what girls are supposed to do.

Why do you assume this is cause rather than effect? I find it hard to imagine we set out to define gender roles, rather than those roles evolving over a long time due to a billion factors.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#245

Post by simonh » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #138

simonh wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balance isn't the goal. Equal opportunity is the goal. If the imbalance is due to a lack of interest in a field by one gender or another that's perhaps regrettable but not a moral issue. If the imbalance is due to obstacles or prejudices faced by one gender over another then would you agree that is a moral issue that is more important for society to rectify?

Respectfully, why are you framing this as a question? You don't need anyone's permission to observe that prejudice is an important moral issue --- and the only people who would answer "no" to your question don't sincerely acknowledge moral imperatives in the first place.

That's a perfectly fair question. I asked in order to try and find common ground, and in case the poster has some other reason for caring particularly about imbalance instead of opportunity, or in case the poster doesn't think that the imbalance is due to differences in opportunity as described in the original article. However I could have phrased it more clearly.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#246

Post by reitanqild » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:38 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #128

belorn wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

54/46 is considered gender equal ratio in Sweden as its within the 40%/40% line. However the argument that we should put our focus based on how high the gender unequal distribution is is an fascinating argument since here in Sweden we have a perfect record of every employed person profession (as part of the tax record). We can list every professions and their gender distribution, and naturally very few of the stem pr…

In case this needs to be spelled out for you, and I apologize if it doesn't, but the subtext of there being a unique gender disparity in tech not shared by thematically similar STEM fields, let alone STEM in general, is that the causal agent is misogyny.

I'm aware that you are a celebrity here and I'm a nobody.

And I agree with you in a lot of things, including that we should make workplaces more inclusive.

But being right does not entitle you to be rude, passive agressive, using various tricks to silence everyone.

Think about this: if someone else behaved like you are doing now (edit: in this whole thread) - and wasn't a celebrity or otherwise safe - they might very well have to face unpleasant consequences (edit: was something like might very well have to find a new job).

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#247

Post by yorwba » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

smokeyj wrote: post #156

tptacek wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without engaging in any of the rest of your comment, I'm going to call out again the attempt to shift goalposts from tech to STEM in general. Tech people want to believe that the gender disparity in their field is shared among all the STEM fields, but, of course, it is not: women are far better represented in other STEM fields. Computer science, physics, and engineering have similarly acute gender disparity. The rest…

If women are represented in the rest of STEM but not the T - doesn't that challenge the narrative of "social conditioning" being the root cause? What I mean is, there isn't anyone out there telling women that physics is cool whereas programming is not. My bet is that anyone encouraging their little girl to be a physicists would be equally enthused about electrical engineering.. but I could be wrong. I think when peop…

> Software just isn't cool. It's actually pretty un-cool. I don't know how to change that.

I'm currently as an exchange student in China, and every time I tell someone that I'm studying CS, they are like "Oh my god, that's so cool!".

Somehow I'm still completely surprised when I hear that reaction. I have no idea what causes this perception, I need to remember to ask next time.

The gender distribution in my classes is still 90%+ male, though. Somehow the different image of the field does not translate into more female students.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#248

Post by wetha » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:45 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #146

wetha wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible you see better representation of both genders in a society where people choose their career based on potential ROI. Fewer societies allow its people to truly choose their career based on interest or passion alone, which might be where you see larger differences in gender representation. However, that brings up the politically incorrect argument that men are more interested in Tech than women, which see…

>It is possible you see better representation of both genders in a society where people choose their career based on potential ROI. The world would be a drastically different place if people were rational.

That's too simplistic.

While individual people need not be rational, a better theory is that society as a whole is largely rational when taking into account disruptions due to causal factors (people, groups, situations). These causal factors need not be rational, and the extent to which society allows these causal factors to influence it determines how far it deviates from rational behaviour.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#249

Post by forthefuture » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #227

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The former-Communist East-European country I lived in as a kid was a lot more egalitarian than most of present-day Western countries That really depends on how you measure gender equality and general freedom though. > to this day I still think that a stay-at-home parent is a lazy human being You're just being too judgemental though. If a family is wanting for nothing and they agree that one parent should stay at ho…

> That really depends on how you measure gender equality and general freedom though. Like I said, gender equality was pretty well established. "General freedom" doesn't have that much in common with equality, we can all be equal but not free. I'd say that for further reading on the matter Mona Ozouf's essays on "liberté, égalité, fraternité" is a good starting point (a related article about it in French: http://www.l…

Well the idea of a stay at home parent is that child care is work. You can either pay someone or do it yourself, in which case you're doing the job you would have paid someone else to do.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#250

Post by nnfy » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:49 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #221

nnfy wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment concluded with the following: > If the imbalance is due to obstacles or prejudices faced by one gender over another then would you agree that is a moral issue that is more important for society to rectify However, as per the very quote you present >A new study from Microsoft sheds some light...gender stereotypes, few female role models, peer pressure and a lack of encouragement from parents and teachers…

Why are we talking about prejudice from hostile white men in the industry? Who brought up that topic? Are you aware of studies on that? Do you have any links to them? It seems like a complete digression from the article and the thread to this point, but if you really want to discuss it I'm game. What opinion on that do you feel like arbitrarily ascribing to me? > do you seriously mean to suggest I didn't suggest any…

As I've already quoted, you suggested that the imbalance may be coming from prejudice by men against women.

In a subsequent response to a comment where I pointed out the disparity between "equality" initiatives in male and female dominant industries, you dismissed my argument as whataboutism with an anecdote about your wife and said that "nobody's ignoring anything".