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India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

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Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#241

Post by joecool1029 »

tallanvor wrote: post #179
droopyEyelids wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mylar chip bags and 20oz soda bottles... What a revolution for litter and health it'd be if we got rid of those, too.

Plastic bottles and cans really need to have a nationwide deposit system in the US - the way Norway does it helps a lot - they have either a 1 or 2.5kr deposit depending on the size of the bottle, and all the grocery stores have a machine that you feed them into that checks for the label and gives you a slip to get the money from the cashier. It'd be nice if we could find a way to extend that type of system to other…

> Plastic bottles and cans really need to have a nationwide deposit system in the US

No, they really don't. Having spent enough time in states that do and states that don't, I can tell you that having a deposit system encourages some bad behavior and doesn't really solve the problem.

1. It encourages scavenger people that dig through recycling and garbage making a mess of things in order to find large bottles with a deposit. On face value you think, 'yay, we get free sanitation workers cleaning up the city'. The reality is, they find the most efficient way to dig through and don't care about throwing disposable trash all over to get the loot.

2. Hoarding. I've seen people's kitchens and basements filled with cans because they want to do it all in one shot or for some special occasion. It makes a mess and is super annoying. You like fruit flies? This is how you get fruit flies.

3. It's inefficient. People who have the means will still not care about collecting the deposit because it's a PITA to go down to the store with the empties. The only people who get excited about it are the same people who think a tax refund is actually a gift from the government..

While it might solve some of the above problems, you won't find much luck making deposits $1/bottle or something in the US because it's only going to make life more of a pain for the poor. It's not a workable solution.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#242

Post by mgkimsal »

mgkimsal wrote: post #147
tracker1 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Littering just pisses me off... I think that and vandalizing publicly accessible restrooms are the two things most likely to inspire a violent response in my mind. It's a complete lack of morality and respect for other's property, and community in general.

> It's a complete lack of morality and respect for other's property, and community in general. Unless you're visiting from another state, it's YOUR OWN property; you are the public.

I don't normally complain/comment about downvotes, but I'm not getting the downvotes here. Input? Maybe my sentence was just poorly worded?

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#243

Post by hfsktr »

savanaly wrote: post #239
hfsktr wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pretty sure a lot of people will just reduce other expenses to compensate. At least for as long as they can. That just means most of the money goes to tobacco companies instead of anything else they would have spent it on. I think I agree with vidyesh, taxes are for money not for changing social behavior.

>I am pretty sure a lot of people will just reduce other expenses to compensate. At least for as long as they can. We don't have to idly speculate this, the phenomenon is called elasticity of demand in economics, and not only are there good estimates of elasticity for various products, there's a rich set of ideas that have been developed around elasticity, including what happens when you tax goods of various elastici…

Yeah the government gets the money. I hadn't thought it out completely while I was typing and just put what popped into my head.

I did take some form of economics in school but it's not something I really had a heavy interest in but I understand how it's useful.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#244

Post by eru »

TillE wrote: post #122
eru wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cans are actually more energy efficient to produce and recycle.

I don't think that's the case. Sturdy glass bottles can simply be washed a few dozen times before they wear out, whereas aluminum cans must be melted down and remade.

Sorry, I was talking about glass recycling vs can recycling.

Yes, washing glass is quite a bit more economical than glass recycling. We do the whole glass deposit thing in Germany where I grew up.

(The deposit is actually pretty clever: if you are rich enough not to care, you can just leave your bottle anywhere, and someone else with more time but less money will pick it up sooner or later.)

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#245

Post by ovulator »

jws wrote: post #76
DrScump wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Silicon Valley, there is far more trash along highways than there was 30 years ago, well beyond simple per-capita pace.

I've driven through quite a bit of the United States. Attitudes to roadside littering vary wildly. Some eastern Washington state highways and rural Kentucky highways have mind bogglingly improbable amounts of litter for the number of people which travel them. Time to roll out the "Crying Indian Ad" for another generation.

You'd think green liberal Washington would be low on the list, but I agree. It's hard to spot in the summer when there is greenery everywhere, but when things die off in the winter, all that trash becomes very visible.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#246

Post by jhatax »

J-dawg wrote: post #175
mgkimsal wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 weeks ago on my way to work, I watched a guy pull off to the side of the road. He opened his car door, and just dumped trash out - a few small bags of trash. He had just driven past a gas station and convenience store - both with publicly accessible trash cans to throw stuff away - you don't even have to get out of your car. It's a bizarre mindset some people have - let me drive past the driver-accessible trash can…

It is utterly bizarre. This stuff angers and confuses me in equal measure. It's like a complete refusal to participate in society, just the expectation that someone else will come and tidy up after you. How do these people behave elsewhere in their lives? One example I keep seeing is people who buy a pack of cigarettes, rip off the plastic film covering and just drop it on the floor. It sends me into a silent rage ev…

A lot of research has gone into what makes people behave this way. Read about "Tragedy of Commons"[1] and "Diffusion of Responsibility" [2] for more insights.

The net-net is that people rationalize their actions using whatever means necessary.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#247

Post by slezakattack »

mrkgnao wrote: post #124
slezakattack wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I visited Nepal, a lot of the street vendors had these bowls made of leaves (perhaps banana leaf, not really sure). I have no idea if they are financially better off or cost effective but thought I'd mention that I've seen something like this before.

Street phuchka vendors in Kolkata (they are what you call golgappas in Delhi) will hand you bowls made out of sal leaves. I wonder if that's the same as what you came across? https://billandpaige.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/dsc_6462.jp...

That looks vaguely right. I remember it being a bit more richer green look to it but the shape and everything looks about right.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#248

Post by mercer »

tucaz wrote: post #232
mercer wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can neatly separate people by their behavior in this manner, in general, but also in particular when it comes to 'automatic', frequent behavior like disposing of trash. People are irrational. Most smokers I know will carefully separate their trash and walk hundreds of meters to put everything in the right bin... and yet dispose of their cigarettes all over the place. To my shame I have to admit I wa…

I smoke and I was pretty much the person you described until a couple years ago when I saw a friend going out of his way to dispose of the cigarette butts in a trash can. Since them I do whatever I have to do, including storing it inside my cigarette pack, to not throw any butts on the floor.

Same here! Monkey see, monkey do.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#249

Post by bogomipz »

thunderstrike wrote: post #240
bogomipz wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It interesting in many places in South America glass bottles are the norm, they get sterilized and reused. You see crates of them stacked up outside the kioskos waiting to be picked up. You pay a deposit on the bottle and get a redemption when you return it. This isn't a new development either, its just kind of the way its always been. I am not sure why plastic didn't become as dominant in many of those countries.

This is extremely interesting, I wonder what it would take to get this implemented in the United States?

I think just a shift in mentality and a bit of legislation. This would actually be a shift back in the United States really. There was a time when milk and soft drinks came in glass bottles as a matter of course. Its actually good for companies bottom lines as well. This from a Coca Cola earning's call:

"Returnable bottles all the rage You may remember a time when you went to the grocery store and bought returnable glass bottles of Coca-Cola, Sprite, or the mostly forgotten Tab brand. After you finished with the bottles you returned them to the store for a deposit refund. In the United States, the last of the 6.5 ounce returnable bottles were finished during October 2012 at a bottling facility in Minnesota. In Latin America the returnable bottles continue and contribute greatly to Coca-Cola FEMSA's top line growth in every geographic region. In Mexico, returnable packages grew 5%. Affordability and the desire to reduce environmental impact increased consumer appeal. Latin Americans, specifically Mexicans, faced with a shrinking pocketbook remain keen on ways to save money. Coca-Cola FEMSA wants to invest more in returnables to appease consumers' increasingly frugal nature."

I'm of the opinion that beverages actually taste better from bottles, thats part of the magic of the "Mexican Coke"(along with using real sugar as opposed to corn syrup.)

Source:

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/11/23/5-interest...

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#250

Post by surge »

tucaz wrote: post #232
mercer wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can neatly separate people by their behavior in this manner, in general, but also in particular when it comes to 'automatic', frequent behavior like disposing of trash. People are irrational. Most smokers I know will carefully separate their trash and walk hundreds of meters to put everything in the right bin... and yet dispose of their cigarettes all over the place. To my shame I have to admit I wa…

I smoke and I was pretty much the person you described until a couple years ago when I saw a friend going out of his way to dispose of the cigarette butts in a trash can. Since them I do whatever I have to do, including storing it inside my cigarette pack, to not throw any butts on the floor.

As a non-smoker, it's my number one gripe with smokers and why I used to consider them scum with little remorse when places started restricting where they smoke, this I judge smokers for more than anything else. So many butts strewn about every where, outside side exits, in the grass by benches, do they think fiberglass is biodegradable or something? I can be in a nice place, a outdoor setting that is other wise pristine, but you'll see a mound of cigerette butt's. It'll often be next to an ash tray or cigarette disposal too.

I don't fathom how you don't/didn't notice, it's like throwing bubblegum wrappers on the ground, yeah its small, but when you smoke packs of cigarettes in the same spot it adds up, not to mention more of a hassle to clean up by others like picking up confetti off the ground. I'm glad you realized it, but I can't imagine how people are utterly clueless about it being a problem (I just assumed all smokers were a-holes because they didn't care).

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