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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

danluu.com

241–250 of 310 posts

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slight counter, I'm working remotely (I live in small town in the Philadelphia suburbs) for a company with the US office outside of Boston, making 135k right now.

Congratulations - that's my dream. :) Any tips on what to look for? I've interviewed with a few remote teams and they weren't able to give me anything close to that.

Target companies who are based in SF/NYC and are otherwise bought into the "expensive engineer" mindset (good signals: using modern tech, top-tier VC funding, etc.). Or just go the consulting route and earn even more.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#242
post #34
post #15

I teach computer science at a well-known, large and mediocre university. I see bimodal grade distributions all the time. The more technical a subject, the more bimodal the grades. In fluff subjects like software engineering where grading relates to essay writing and group projects, grade distribution tends to be gaussian. OTOH in technical subjects where I grade by automated test suits, basically students fail almost…

I have a theory where the bimodal distributions comes from two sets of people: one set focused only passing the course/assignment/test, the other set focused on actually knowing the content. Appearance and substance.

I did a batchelors in Molecular Biology years ago, and I noticed that some of my friends seemed to just learn the material, whereas I tended to understand the material.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#243
post #10

If there's a pronounced bimodal distribution, it seems like the biggest driver of it would be the lumping of various programmer specialties into one giant bucket. It seems like the 2 sub-buckets would be: 1) $100k or less: backoffice programmers where software itself is not the product sold. Also known as enterprisey/LOB/CRUD developers working outside Silicon Valley. (E.g. programmer working on mortgage servicing so…

You're the first person in this thread who I think has an ounce of reality about this situation. I looked at this article, saw the proposed income distribution, and immediately realized whoever was writing the article doesn't have any awareness of what things are like outside of the largest urban tech centers.

I thought something similar, as the salaries are clearly based in the States.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#244
post #28

> Programming also doesn’t have a licensing body limiting the number of programers, > nor is there the same prestige filter where you have to go to a top school to > get a well paying job. This is my favorite quote from this article. I went to a great school and even though it wasn't Berkley, Stanford, MIT, or CMU, that qualification has never limited my ability to get great opportunities.

I agree, and this is a good thing.

However, there are reasons for this. It's quite difficult to gain admission to a top law school, but the people who apply tend to come from very low attrition majors like history or literature. Furthermore, attrition rates from elite law schools are vanishingly low - less than one half of one percent. Lastly, interviews in law firms are actually interviews, not a series of oral exams.

You don't need a degree to be a programmer, but it helps. Think about what you had to go through to get that degree. The curriculum is relatively standard and is highly rigorous at all "reputable" schools - and by that, I don't mean elite, I just mean real CS departments. Attrition rates for CS majors is very high. At the graduate level, attrition rates remain quite high - PhD programs have an attrition rate of 35%-50%, depending on the field - and that is true of elite programs. Athough MS attrition rates are lower and I've found less data on them, what I did find suggested about 30% - and keep in mind, you have to make it through a high attrition major to apply.

On to interviews. I actually did go to Berkeley for an MS, though not in CS (I did the MS in IEOR and as a cs-ish math major for undergrad), and maybe that was instrumental in getting an interview at Google, but it sure didn't exempt me from the same technical grilling everyone else goes through! It was about 5 hours of what I considered to be genuinely difficult whiteboard exams. I actually felt OK (not great) about my performance, though it was ultimately a no-hire.

This is why I don't agree that programming has a low barrier of entry, especially if we're going to talk about a bimodal distribution. Where you went to school is less important, but that's because getting through is so difficult - we don't have these vanishingly low attrition rates in our field, even at elite programs. And the interview process is very, very difficult.

Great analysis from this post, and very interesting data, but I think it does miss the mark when discussing why programmers are well paid at the elite level. The claim that "U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionistic barrier to prop up programmer compensation" is indisputably true, but I don't think it explains much - if this is true for programmers in the US, it's just as true for every other field. In fact, it may be the reverse - programming does have the H1B visa, so if anything I'd say programming is subjected to a higher level of international competition for jobs located in the US than other fields that require "current right to live and work in the US".

Ultimately, I think people confuse the absence of formal barriers backed with the force of law with the absence of barriers in general. Considering what I went through to get my degrees (in high attrition rate fields), and the kind of problem solving, math, programming chops, poise under pressure, and presentation ability it takes to get through google-style interviews - you know, I really don't think we face considerably lower barriers to entry than law. Different, more porous in many ways, more fluid. In law, you must (in general) attend a law school, whereas in programming, there are multiple paths toward getting that knowledge and those top jobs. But it's actually not at all easy to break into the elite level of this field. I'd say barriers to entry are actually quite high.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#245

Funny thing that I was having a discussion with one of my friend who is in the middle of salary negotiation. The company is pushing him hard to accept the offer well below than his expectations and he was expecting more hike as he was relocating to bay area. He was quite disappointed that he didn't get the salary figure he was expecting but still wanted to accept the offer as he didn't want to loose the opportunity.…

> Why are they not transparent like finance guys, lawyers, doctors etc. The average banker or lawyer is an order of magnitude better at negotiation and valuation than the average developer. It's literally their job. For a finance guy, not optimizing your compensation package is sacrilegious. Meanwhile we have still have lots of developers who think it's absurd that they'd even be paid $100k and don't want to think ab…

I was interviewing in Spain a while ago, the salaries are fairly poor here. Some guys with ten years experience were asking for very little. I should have told them to up their requirements.

At the same time none of them seemed very enthusiastic at all.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the point remains. Why are people who can't code getting the CS or EE degrees? Generally, the degree is supposed to indicate some sort of sufficiency with development. Probably universities are dumbing down requirements for $$$.

>Probably universities are dumbing down requirements for $$$. I 100% believe this is true. When I was in college it was pretty staggering to see my fellow classmates receive passing grades and get shoveled through the programs despite never grasping the basic fundamentals of CS. These were people who, at the end of CS 101, still couldn't tell you the difference between a string and an int, who after CS 202 _still_ co…

Is this really true? At Berkeley and other UC schools, the programs are often "impacted", meaning they are looking for reasons to kick people out (or, more likely, deny them entry in the first place). A bad early semester with a C in physics and B- in calculus (not at all uncommon at places with less grade inflation) can spell the end of your CS major. People get bounced from this degree all the time.

Just for the record, I don't approve of this. I'm all for standards, glad they exist, but I think some UC schools are pretty callous in how they treat students. I admire those who get through, but there are plenty of people who would have made wonderful contributions if they'd had just a bit more understanding and breathing room. I think Berkeley wastes people because they know there will always be another 10 lined up to take someone's place.

Can't say I love privates in every way, but really, it's a good thing to try to work with someone who is new to college and struggling rather than kicking them straight to the curb.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#247
post #149
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I don't think there is much difference in intrinsic ability. I'm absolutely convinced that every healthy person can become a really good programmer. But becoming a really good programmer requires putting in a lot of time doing programming, and a lot of students don't put in that time.

I've been programming for nearly 40 years. Based on my interactions with others, programming is an intrinsic ability. People that don't have that intrinsic ability can cut'n'paste their way through simple programs, but really struggle to understand what they are doing and why their program works (or not). Anecdata: My high school got access to a computer (dialup modem). I essentially taught myself programming and the…

My problem with these theories is that people like me just don't fit into them at all.

I've always been slow. Never did all that well in classes. When I was on a FIRST Robotics team I was phased out by the genius programmer that was already there and barely saw any code. I never really had a problem with for loops or if statements. But never really instantly got the more complex programming concepts, either. My father was a programmer so I was exposed to a lot of the things earlier, maybe that's why I missed the not getting for loops stage. I shouldn't be a programmer if many posts in this thread are to be believed. My father shouldn't be, either.

Worst of all, my programming understanding has went through several key developments in a very jagged fashion. For loops and if statements just didn't give enough to push me over the edge. And it wasn't just programming, but the general theme was that sometimes I would just not get some concept, or miss a simple concept, and after that, I would get stuck, and I could not get unstuck without some unusual event like getting the right help from the right source at the right time. One of my most important degrees of understanding did not develop until I took a certain class in the second-to-last semester of college.

After a while, it seems that enough things clicked all at once, and the problem went away. I don't get stuck anymore, I always know where to go. But that was supposed to happen earlier, so much earlier, but it just didn't.

While this was all happening I was definitely the kid who doesn't get it in the eyes of others. Maybe there's some teacher or mentor out there right now writing a blog post or a comment somewhere else about how they tried, they really tried, but I didn't get it.

And, yet, leaving for another industry would have easily been the worst decision of my life.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you enjoy something, it's much easier to put a lot of time in to figure it out. For example, I became a software entrepreneur about five years ago making money from my own projects. Dealing with a lot of business related "work", I actually discovered I also really like law, in particular tax law. A friend of mine was a pretty good lawyer (hung up his hat to do more entrepreneurial stuff) and I occasionally a…

It's not really surprising that good programmers are often also good at legal drafting. When you're a programmer, you understand that the processor is dumb and has to be guided through absolutely everything. If you don't factor in the corner cases, your program is going to screw up somehow. Legal drafting is the same thing, just replace the processor with a judge and the programming language with English. If, while w…

A lot of less technical management doesn't understand how important being able to find corner caeses is. This is what separates a good and solid application from one that is routinely failing.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#249
Having been in the hiring and compensation path at a few companies both north and south of the boarder, this seems to only apply to the US, and in particular silicon valley.

Up in Canada, the compensation seems to be more of a normal distribution.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#250
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing is generally an investment, so what I'm dumping in my mortgage, I don't have to dump in retirement funds (assuming im planning on selling the place and moving out when I no longer care about big cities). So I literally don't mind dumping a million+ in my condo. Second, even that million+ condo only cost me a third of my salary, including property tax and HoA after tax breaks and shit. Literally everything els…

A single property does not make a good substitute for a retirement fund. There's a reason why retirement funds allow you to invest in a diverse set of bonds with different rates of risk and across different industries. Putting all of your eggs in one basket is a stupidly risky move.

It's not my only egg. My only point is, spending a large amount of money on a home is not necessarily just a net expense, and is actually very frequently (in those cities, SF, Seattle, NYC, Cambridge/Boston, etc) a "profit", even after interests on the loan.

Even if my property was to lose 50% of its value tomorrow, its still better than renting, or getting an expensive car, or whatever. And in the best case, it will have a hell of a return.

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