With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy • Hacker News Board

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#241

Post by CamperBob2 » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

dimino wrote: post #22

jakebasile wrote: post #17

I upgraded willingly so the deceptive upgrade practices, while deplorable, didn't really affect me. What does affect me is that Microsoft refuses to let me control my computer. - If you turn off Windows Defender Real Time Protection it explicitly tells you "You can turn this off, but if it's off for a while we'll turn it back on". It turns itself on upon next reboot, it seems. - You can't turn off Windows Update. It…

Your last few points are annoying for sure, but the first 3 are the result of 20+ years of Microsoft's poor reputation for security due to its prominence and numerous flaws. I completely sympathize with Microsoft's plight here, and while you might not be among those who are constantly infected, the number of people who do end up having problems is so high that they're willing to lose you as a cost of keeping the othe…

No. The same security patches that are applied to 10 also apply all the way back to 7, and even earlier. To the extent they don't, it's because Microsoft no longer wants them to apply to 7 after the end of its support life. (Which, last I checked, hasn't happened yet.)

Do you think they rewrote the whole kernel in 10, or even a big chunk of it?

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#242

Post by r00fus » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:29 PM UTC

ben_jones wrote: post #174

0xmohit wrote: post #2

Some highlights: Microsoft installed an app in users’ system trays advertising the free upgrade to Windows 10. Not satisfied, the company eventually made Windows 10 a recommended update so users receiving critical security updates were now also downloading an entirely new operating system onto their machines without their knowledge. This is essentially equivalent to saying: You've been running whatever version of Win…

And yet the game Overwatch doesn't have an OSX port so I have windows 10 setup as a dual-boot option. It seems that Microsoft has correctly deduced that users don't really give a fuck. They'll throw a hissy fit, they'll make all sorts of blog posts, but at the end of the day the majority are still staring at a windows 10 installation screen and dealing with it.

Once you stop playing games (it happens eventually for many of us), your need to have Windows around will drop considerably.

Are there any killer apps other than games to have Windows around @home?

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#243

Post by hendersoon » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:30 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #236

hendersoon wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really is not true. The vast majority of people have zero illusions about their own basic computing skills.

They don't need illusions about their basic computing skills. They need a drive-by installer, malware, or "tips'n'tricks" guide that gets them to do this. People don't need to understand tools and systems to use them. Hell, they'll use things for millennia without knowing how they work (quite literally).

If they're running malware with administrator rights, they're already lost by definition.

The kind of people that would leave settings like this at the default generally don't read tips n' tricks guides to tweaking windows. They simply don't care about that sort of thing. Of course _some_ do, as you would no doubt reply, but again it comes down to numbers-- that volume doesn't justify locking it down.

They aren't clueful users so they could be socially engineered to turn off updates, but once you get to that point why wouldn't you just get them to run a RAT as administrator? That is the end goal, after all. And once you own their system you can turn off updates yourself.

Lastly, we're talking about a switch in the GUI here-- it is already possible to completely disable telemetry and automatic updates on Windows 10. You just need to hack through the registry and group policy or use a third party tool to do it. Anyone who takes control of your computer can do it remotely.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#244

Post by marcosdumay » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:31 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #223

wangchow wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the past year I've noticed a lot of things mysteriously getting installed, things moving around, etc. I don't mind automatic updates so long as there's a separation from the new features and bug fixes. There should be a base core of apps that are necessary and a set of opt-in add-on features. It's time to move to Linux on laptop/desktop/tablet I think. While I love my surface pro 3 and the Windows 10 experience…

Debian used to be quite good at not stuffing things up. Even on testing/unstable. For the past few months, my laptop pointer controls -- this is PS/2 mouse emulation, folks, what, 20+ years old? -- has broken thanks apparently to libinput. Middle mouse button is only partially functional. Not that I use that ever.... Making increasingly complex things, and failing to keep an eye on the ball, ends up bolluxing stuff.…

I've had lots of Debian updates breaking my sound system. And twice when they pushed NetworkManager into the KDE dependencies, and when they pushed idmapd into NFSv4, it broke my network shares.

I can't remember anything else breaking on stable. It's been a much experience than updating Windows.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#245

Post by r00fus » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:36 PM UTC

LeoPanthera wrote: post #67

jakebasile wrote: post #17

I upgraded willingly so the deceptive upgrade practices, while deplorable, didn't really affect me. What does affect me is that Microsoft refuses to let me control my computer. - If you turn off Windows Defender Real Time Protection it explicitly tells you "You can turn this off, but if it's off for a while we'll turn it back on". It turns itself on upon next reboot, it seems. - You can't turn off Windows Update. It…

While not defending Microsoft (my first advice would be: don't use Windows), there's a free app called "ShutUp10" that allows you to fix almost everything in your list above.

Jury is still out: http://superuser.com/questions/1038050/does-oo-shutup-10-eff...

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#246

Post by Grishnakh » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:36 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #228

Grishnakh wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I completely disagree with this, and believe this type of belief is one of the core problems in society. That's a perfectly valid opinion, however the law states otherwise; our society and legal system both reward amoral thinking in corporations. >Corporations are just a social organization of people, and the people of that organization absolutely have ethical and moral obligations. You can believe this all you want…

And one other thing, Simply choosing other software is pointless unless you can get the majority of users to follow you or get enough users to make a large enough PR problem for the offending company they must react. (as MS has done several times when complaints have reached critical mass) one way to do that is Continue to bring up this issues in public forums, to educate the users of these software products. One way…

No, you completely misunderstand. My advice doesn't even apply to you really, because apparently you took my advice years ago, since you said you already left the MS ecosystem. I'm not being defeatist, I'm pushing people to look for alternatives, because MS is not going to turn into a good corporate citizen, nor is the government going to force them to. If people don't like getting screwed over, it's their responsibility to find a vendor that won't. Apparently, you even agree with me, because you've done just that. I'm just pushing for everyone else to do the same. But sitting around waiting for everyone else to follow you isn't going to work; if everyone has that mentality, then nothing will change.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#247

Post by CommanderData » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:36 PM UTC

jakebasile wrote: post #17

I upgraded willingly so the deceptive upgrade practices, while deplorable, didn't really affect me. What does affect me is that Microsoft refuses to let me control my computer. - If you turn off Windows Defender Real Time Protection it explicitly tells you "You can turn this off, but if it's off for a while we'll turn it back on". It turns itself on upon next reboot, it seems. - You can't turn off Windows Update. It…

Seeing more negative news about Win 10 on HN interests me. HN, what I regard, a big developer news site - I wonder if Microsoft cares.

I am sure and probably stating the obvious here. Developers are a group Microsoft does care about - devs eventually drives some of the cogs in their grand scheme. Making noise here will get their attention, more than making noise on some consumer forum.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#248

Post by makomk » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

tracker1 wrote: post #129

wangchow wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the past year I've noticed a lot of things mysteriously getting installed, things moving around, etc. I don't mind automatic updates so long as there's a separation from the new features and bug fixes. There should be a base core of apps that are necessary and a set of opt-in add-on features. It's time to move to Linux on laptop/desktop/tablet I think. While I love my surface pro 3 and the Windows 10 experience…

On the flip side, I run Ubuntu on my htpc, and have for several years now... there have been a couple times where the updates broke audio, and the fix took on average 2 days, though I can imagine some people having worse experiences... Getting an MCE remote (arguably the most common PC remote type) working with Kodi (formerly xbmc and very popular full screen media player) took some cumbersome steps. On average one a…

As someone who's had the misfortune of encountering and then tracking down PulseAudio bugs, it probably doesn't help that it's a code quality disaster. Few comments, close coupling between different parts, no stable bugfix-only releases, and even the developers have trouble understanding what size buffers functions should expect.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#249

Post by CommanderData » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

randiantech wrote: post #158

Honest question here: Why tech community is so hard with Windows mandatory updates, and kind of flexible with other companies? Maybe its just me, but the ratio of posts and articles blaming Microsoft for this practice seems to be disproportional. I mean, my Mac asked me 875 times about accepting something about iTunes. No matter how many times i click on decline, it keeps appearing there all the time. Same thing with…

I think comparing OS updates to something like browser updates isn't really fair. My Mac does the same but I still have control. More control than Windows 10's new reality.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#250

Post by makomk » Wed, Aug 17, 2016, 9:45 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #223

wangchow wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the past year I've noticed a lot of things mysteriously getting installed, things moving around, etc. I don't mind automatic updates so long as there's a separation from the new features and bug fixes. There should be a base core of apps that are necessary and a set of opt-in add-on features. It's time to move to Linux on laptop/desktop/tablet I think. While I love my surface pro 3 and the Windows 10 experience…

Debian used to be quite good at not stuffing things up. Even on testing/unstable. For the past few months, my laptop pointer controls -- this is PS/2 mouse emulation, folks, what, 20+ years old? -- has broken thanks apparently to libinput. Middle mouse button is only partially functional. Not that I use that ever.... Making increasingly complex things, and failing to keep an eye on the ball, ends up bolluxing stuff.…

But libinput is a vital part of the new, improved Wayland future, so obviously it must be better. Because of this development of the existing touchpad driver has even been dropped in favour of it.