Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 368 posts

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#241

Post by hueving »

andrewprock wrote: post #211
downandout wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are legitimate discussions that can be had about the specific strategies that companies should use to maximize shareholder value. For example, paying higher wages might mean better employees and ultimately more profits despite the increased costs. Long-term investments in R&D might result in higher overall value for the company, despite the short-term hit to the balance sheet. However, I don't think a legitimat…

Of course there is. I think there is a strong economic consensus that government subsidies can be bad. Your argument essentially invalidates that and supports a world where legal corruption is moral.

>Your argument essentially invalidates that and supports a world where legal corruption is moral.

No it doesn't. It implies that the correct fix is to eliminate tax loopholes, not attempting to guilt a corporation into paying more, which is about as effective as guilting the sun into cooling down.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#242

Post by hueving »

bobwaycott wrote: post #228
oldmanjay wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many ways a tax can be unethical. It may finance torture, invasion, and fomenting coups in undeveloped nations that lead to widespread suffering. For example.

That is not an ethical problem with the tax, but with the choices made by leadership on policies and budgets.

Sure it is. Taxes can be levied for very specific purposes. Even ignoring that category of taxes, if you find that a whole country is operating immorally, then funding that company is immoral.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#243

Post by varunom »

melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

For a wider prospective of how this whole tax haven thing got setup [0] is a nice read.

0: http://michael-hudson.com/2016/04/laundering-havens-for-war-...

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#244

Post by infodroid »

cardamomo wrote: post #230
spdy wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can a tax be in this category?

"Taxation without representation."

If you have the friends that companies like Google do, then I don't think you have any problems with representation.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#245

Post by ultramancool »

khedoros wrote: post #187
qsymmachus wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why abuse of rights is an important legal principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_of_rights Rational != Ethical

Unethical != Illegal. If acting in an unethical manner causes a company fewer liabilities than acting ethically, which choice do you expect them (an amoral entity) to make? I expect that they'll keep pushing boundaries until it starts costing them.

Not only that, but as a shareholder, if acting "unethically" (for which there's no formal definition, just flimsy human opinions) but legally is in my best interest, I expect them to do it.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#246

Post by collyw »

pherq wrote: post #175
collyw wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I read somewhere that it differs by country. I think the UK is legal by default unless the law specifically makes it illegal. While in Germany its illegal by default unless it is specifically made legal. (I am no expert, it was probably a comment I read on here).

It's part of an old joke (crops up in Yes Minister, may go back further): in Germany, everything is prohibited except that which is allowed; in the UK, everything is allowed except that which is prohibited; in Russia, everything is prohibited including that which is allowed, while in Italy everything is allowed especially that which is prohibited.

Wikipidia says it is partially true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_which_is_not_forbid...

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#247

Post by nickik »

antr wrote: post #168
wyager wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments? I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

I'm an energy investor and get to work with tax advisors and lawyers very often in order to maximise tax structures and cash repatriation. Everything we do is approved by tax authorities and positively seen by our shareholders. I agree to a certain extent with you that companies are acting rationally. I can assure you it's my responsibility to make the best use of these tools. However, the direct and indirect pressur…

That is why many people have often called for tax simplification. The Flat Tax proposal (and for you progressives, yes we can make it progressive but that not the point) is designed to be as simple as possible and to provide few loopholes.

This is not the end all solution but it at least makes everything far, far simpler.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#249

Post by mrschwabe »

bobwaycott wrote: post #229
mrschwabe wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would profits be unethical?

Profits would be unethical if they were derived from unethical business practices. This isn't difficult to imagine.

Okay fair point. Though I don't necessarily see the correlation to taxation. I assume what perhaps is being implied is that the money from taxation can be used for ethical or unethical practices (as oldmanjay points out). Yet that analogy skips how tax is only possible with profit, not to mention the fundamental issue of whether or not taxation of profit is ethical in the first place.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#250

Post by uola »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #128
uola wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (which would then allow the US rate to be lower for the same revenue) While I'm sure it can be minimized, the US doesn't have a particularly low corporate income tax rate. > And if they paid that tax in the US [...] how would that help Spain and France? Companies like Google not having to pay tax on revenues outside the US is essentially a government subsidy. One that creates a "slush fund" for US companies to acqu…

> Companies like Google not having to pay tax on revenues outside the US is essentially a government subsidy. One that creates a "slush fund" for US companies to acquire their European competition. We're essentially in a trade war, just that Europe hasn't realized it. Except that "US companies" incorporated in Ireland aren't US companies. Can't European companies also incorporate in Ireland?

No, because Google isn't paying the Irish corporate tax but instead moving the money to a second Irish company (hence the double Irish) based in the Bahamas. A European company with a subsidiary based in the Bahamas would trigger anti-avoidance laws, which a US company won't (until they bring the money back into the US) because of a loophole in the US anti-avoidance laws.
Post reply on HN