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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#241

Post by kafkaesq »

ultramancool wrote: post #30
wiredfool wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to meet the definition of attacked: The convincing turned into trying to pull her away physically, grabbing at her hands. I locked my arm with hers, and put myself in between her and Jake. All while he was trying to reach around me, while he was telling me to let go.

Not raped though, which is what I was trying to get at. Sorry if I was vague. You're right, the evidence of many other incidents is indeed there.

In conjunction with the description of involuntary genital exploration that normally precedes the above quote it was, unambiguously, an episode of sexual assault.

You can debate whether digital-only -- but nonetheless involuntary -- stimulation fits the legal definition of "rape" in this or that jurisdiction, if you want. But if so, you'd be splitting hairs.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#242

Post by HarryHirsch »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #194
HarryHirsch wrote: post #35

Everyone who advocates for codes of conduct needs to have a hard look at the Appelbaum story and answer cogently how a code of conduct would have defended against Jacob Appelbaum. That's the great weakness, they do not work at all against anyone in an elevated social position.

Are you claiming that if something fails to solve ALL problems, it is useless?

I'd argue socially appropiate behaviour is a tone-at-the-top problem. Random arseholes and yahoos are generally dealt with fairly quickly through the usual channels. I'd even say they are no problem because of that fact. But those at the top of the hierarchy get away with more for longer, and they set the standard for the rest of the organization and make the atmosphere, too. The challenge is how to get the top brass to live by their code-of-conduct. I have no suggestion for that problem, but in the struggle between corporate culture and code of conduct, the corporate culture always wins.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#243

Post by patrickg_zill »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #166
ultramancool wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not, but there's a world of difference still.

I get what you're saying... but back when I worked at a grocery store and called out a lazy stoner I worked with for being exceptionally slow and inefficient, he waited until I was alone in the stock room and held a knife to me and said if I ever did anything like that again, he would cut me. There was no physical harm, but I was shaken enough to quit on the spot when the manager told me he would not be fired. Here's…

That absolutely would be classed as a physical assault, not a psychological one, however, as I understand the law.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#244

Post by hashberry »

lusen wrote: post #33

our cultural environment gives us a bias toward downplaying the problem of rape and sexual harassment. i've found this thought experiment helpful in exploring bias: rape is torture. for some it is worse than murder. sexual harassment is aggression. for some it is worse than being punched in the face. how would you feel if someone at your work murdered or punched someone else? how would you feel if there was a systemi…

What about "up-playing" rape? In an account of one of Jacob's assaults[0], the victim wrote: "he was rubbing my clit and rimming the edges of my vagina" and then below she wrote according to German law this is rape with a maximum of 10 years in prison. Was this torture and worse than murder?

[0] https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/the-forest-for-the-trees....

Re: “But he does good work.”

#245

Post by [deleted] »

arenaninja wrote: post #21
kendallpark wrote: post #2

This one of the most disturbing pieces I've read on this topic. Disgusting. "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed."

> "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed." I don't really agree with the quote. Harassment can be too loosely defined. > "It was a close call as to whether his benefits outweighed his liabilities." I disagree with this one more strongly though. I mean from the author's writing, this guy was off-the-charts.

[deleted]

Re: “But he does good work.”

#246

Post by njknsdf »

arenaninja wrote: post #21
kendallpark wrote: post #2

This one of the most disturbing pieces I've read on this topic. Disgusting. "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed."

> "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed." I don't really agree with the quote. Harassment can be too loosely defined. > "It was a close call as to whether his benefits outweighed his liabilities." I disagree with this one more strongly though. I mean from the author's writing, this guy was off-the-charts.

I'm surprised a single person couldn't stop his behavior. If people make such embarrassing statements about your private life or whatever in front of other people, you are in your full right to make an even stronger statement about them being a little rat-fuck creep. Also, he acted that way in front of her boyfriend and the boyfriend didn't say anything? It just goes to show how spineless and weak most of these new-era 'techies' are. Also, since when are journalists 'hackers'? I don't see anything that points to Jake or Juliet being actual hackers, and she keeps referring to him and herself as hackers. Wtf. Sad cunts the lot of them. If you don't have the will and courage to stand up for yourself, don't expect others to do it.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#247

Post by mafribe »

smoyer wrote: post #154
mafribe wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?

I've admitted I'm old ... I grew up with my father teaching me I should "protect the weaker sex". Note that "Weaker sex" is NOT the same thing as "inferior sex" and my father, to this day, treats my mother as his partner. Of course, I was also conditioned (thanks Disney) to want to be the knight in shining armor who comes to the aid of the damsel in distress. So while I intellectually know it applies to everyone, I f…

Thank you for your thoughful response, in particular reflection on the strong tendency to encourage men to "whiteknight".

There is an interesting convergence between feminists and conservatives, in that both seek to demonise and curtail male sexuality as much as possible. They do it for different reasons though.

Social conservatives believe sexuality should be channeled into nuclear families because stable monogamous nuclear families are best for society and also best for the individuals involved. Without conventional families they belive فتنة (Fitna) will rule.

Feminists OTOH do so for altogether different reasons, indeed they loath the stable monogamous nuclear families.

For reasons that are beyond what can be easily discussed in a HN post, feminists have won this battle for now, and use social conservatives as enforcers, something the latter don't realise because they fundamentally don't understand that they are being taken for a ride. In the long run social conservatives will win though, because they have way more children than feminists (male and female). Feminist attitudes will simply die out.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#248

Post by mafribe »

dragonwriter wrote: post #148
mafribe wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?

> What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? What misandry in current harassment laws? Please cite the specific laws containing misandry, and identify the specific source of the misandry in the law.

There are so many, I don't have the energy to type millions of words, so here is but one link: http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059

Re: “But he does good work.”

#249

Post by dpark »

js8 wrote: post #220
dpark wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Duh, no, and I already explained my position in other comments. Perhaps I should have written "society" instead of "community" in the original comment, that would have been clearer. I don't think anyone here has actually proposed that Appelbaum be excluded from society as a whole. It is, however, perfectly legitimate to tell people/communities/society, "Hey, be wary of this guy. He has a history of abuse." > Any co…

> I don't think anyone here has actually proposed that Appelbaum be excluded from society as a whole. Well, that's how I read the original article (it's an appeal to all tech people to shun him) and some of the comments. > If a community is enabling abusers, or sheltering thieves, or otherwise hiding unethical or criminal behavior But we don't know if he was criminal. It's a matter of justice to decide that. In any c…

> But we don't know if he was criminal.

You're reading selectively. I also mentioned abusers and unethical behavior. You overlooked that because it doesn't fit into your "justice system" narrative.

> But it's not OK to call out some community because it doesn't do extra punishment to people who we consider morally bad.

Yes, it absolutely is. The problem here is you're worried about punishment when you should be worried about the community. Shunning someone is partly about punishment but it's also largely about protecting the community. It is perfectly right to say "hey, you have predators in your midst and it's hurting some of your community members while you look the other way." The Catholic church issue is extremely relevant because it is the same scenario at a higher level of severity. Predators preying on the weak should be called out, and if the community doesn't do it, they should fully expect those outside the community to do so.

Your concerns here are especially nonsensical, though, because it's actually community members calling this guy out.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#250

Post by jessaustin »

camperman wrote: post #177
vtlynch wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggesting that the volume of accusations and eyewitness accounts that have been made against Appelbaum may be "false accusations" is a shameful thing to do.

I wasn't but even if I was it isn't shameful at all - it's how justice works in Western societies. Someone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Allegations are just that - allegations. If there are a wide variety of them independently from different people, then it's more likely that there is something to them but that still doesn't mean you can just rush to judgement. That way lies Duke Lacros…

The courts can lock you up or kill you, so it's appropriate if they have somewhat stringent standards for guilt. Private organizations can only show you the door, and the standards for that are quite a bit less exacting. The media episodes you mention are not relevant to the internal operation of private organizations.
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