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For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

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Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#241

Post by varjag »

smilekzs wrote: post #148
chrisbennet wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think sometimes people forget that sometimes the interviewers don't actually want to hire someone. - They might be afraid of someone who might outshine or compete with them. - They might not want to train or mentor someone. - They might think they don't need help. - They already have someone they want to hire and are just going through the motions of "looking".

> They already have someone they want to hire and are just going through the motions of "looking" Exactly, even when you show them (through a mostly well-done interview) that you are up to the job.

On one interview where it felt like that, my wife straight asked if they have someone lined up and her part is just a formality. The manager denied it but was visibly upset.

(Oddly enough, she (a construction engineer) was never asked to solve a few PDEs on a whiteboard or calculate a beam deflection over the phone)

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#242

Post by lostlogin »

mooreds wrote: post #163
soham wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is only one way to toughen up: Practice. Be it interviews or sports. Be it negotiations or cooking. Practice and practice perfectly. 1. Take mock interviews from experienced engineers Go one topic at a time e.g. Recursion or Trees or DP or Multithreading etc. Before you walk into the interview, practice well. Do at least 20 problems on that topic, if not more. 2. Do practice interviews at companies you don't wa…

Wise words: "You are not going there to get a job, you are going there to present what you do... then walk away." I think if more people took this attitude of employment being an arrangement of mutual benefit that both sides are engaged in, the world would be a better place.

Ice always treated interviews as a way of getting to know a bit about the place I might work. I haven't had a whole heap but had always assumed that it was a two way street.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#243

Post by mcv »

lostcolony wrote: post #130
deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

I actually found 'toughening up' the wrong mental strategy, but rather "not giving a damn". You're in a position where you have a job. Anything you interview for you -don't need-. You may want, but you don't need. You also sound very comfortable in a specific role. That's a great place to start from, because if someone rejects you...what are they rejecting? How does it effect you? You know you're good, at least in ce…

Exactly. Interviewing is a lot more comfortable if you do it from the security of having a job. If they don't want you, then no problem.

And more than that, the interview process is also to determine if you actually want to work for them. You can reject them, even if they want to hire you. Interviewing becomes a much more symmetrical affair. You have power too. You can afford to say no, and you can afford them to say no.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#244

Post by collyw »

"Even though algorithmic challenges aren’t really used on the job much in production, it’s still really important to keep revisiting your fundamentals. It’s just like a muscle–if you don’t train it, it’ll become weak."

So we are testing for stuff that no one actually uses in the job. We are testing for those that have time to practice for interview tests·

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#245

Post by mcv »

edabobojr wrote: post #47
NTDF9 wrote: post #31

I read the article as: "It's not enough to be a mediocre engineer for a mediocre paying job. If you want to play in the local tennis league, you better be Roger Federer (without his pay)" I think software engineers should counter-question the interviewers. Interviewers should be allowed to judge the candidate only if they can answer the candidate's questions to them. If the interviewer cannot, he/she is not qualified…

I have done this and have done interviews I did most of the questioning as the interviewee. In my experience, this approach turns off a lot of people.

If you're asking questions to determine whether the interviewer is suitable for the job of interviewer, then you're pretending to be the HR boss. I can see how that turns people off.

But if you're asking questions to determine if this is a company you might want to work for; you ask them how they work, how they're organized, how they handle specific things, what tools they use, etc, then you're simply doing your job as an interviewee, and I've found it doesn't turn anyone off; they just think I'm well prepared and honestly interested in the job.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#246

Post by blazespin »

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

Look at interviews as an interesting opportunity to learn. Try to make sure that the company who is interviewing with you respects that. If it's going to be all one sided / grind you in front of a white board, I'd skip it. Make sure they let you ask questions about their stack, their development methodology, etc. That way interviews are always a profitable experience.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#247

Post by sheepmullet »

frcknfrckn wrote: post #215
p4wnc6 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you can't "just as easily" run the code test. The code test is unreliable -- bad developers who overfit their knowledge to trivia make it through. The code test also causes the really good developers to simply reject you, so you don't even get a chance to hire them, or even find out who they are. You're basically saying you want to lop off the bottom 60% of an imagined Normal distribution. Except…

Gonna have to disagree on that one. If some fraction of that bottom 60% gets through, that's perfectly fine - this is only the first step after all, and there are real interviews still to come. And if this mystical top 5% can't spare the ten minutes to run through what is essentially an interviewing captcha - for a job they were obviously interested in enough to apply for in the first place - then how do I know they…

> And if this mystical top 5% can't spare the ten minutes to run through what is essentially an interviewing captcha

Every coding test I've been asked to take is a 2-5 hour job. I'll do it for a company I really want to work for... But not for a "maybe".

E.g. If I know you are paying 25% over market then 5 hours becomes worth it.

Now 10 minutes? I can spend 10 minutes on a maybe.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#248

Post by mcv »

bargl wrote: post #55

So I've been on the flip side of this. I've worked at a company (multiple) which had no F-ing clue how to hire. They'd constantly hire terrible people who couldn't do the most basic things. I think one of the most important aspects of hiring is getting potential candidates in front of the team and letting them talk to the team, to see how they handle questions from other developers (and yes there is always that guy w…

Still my favourite interview process was a small coding assignment and presenting the resulting code in front of the devs, who got to ask questions about it and then vote in private on whether to hire.

Everybody got the same assignment, everybody solves it in a different way, and everybody makes mistakes[0], but how they handle that and explain it tells a lot about how they are as a programmer.

[0] Except for one who was insanely thorough and still apologized for really minor imperfections in his code. He got the most enthusiastic votes ever.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#249

Post by vijayr »

soham wrote: post #116
deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

There is only one way to toughen up: Practice. Be it interviews or sports. Be it negotiations or cooking. Practice and practice perfectly. 1. Take mock interviews from experienced engineers Go one topic at a time e.g. Recursion or Trees or DP or Multithreading etc. Before you walk into the interview, practice well. Do at least 20 problems on that topic, if not more. 2. Do practice interviews at companies you don't wa…

This is very good advice. The only problem with it is - he will be spending enormous amount of time practicing, preparing for interviews, and end up learning stuff that he might never use in real life. Unless he gets a dream job, I don't know if that is a great use of his time.

The other option is to look for companies that put emphasis on past projects, open source contributions, take home problems etc and apply to those positions. At least this way, he can spend time making things he is interested in.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#250

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

Interviewing is a number game. Treat it as one and it will make your live easier.
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