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How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

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231–240 of 297 posts

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#231

I'd much rather prefer to lurk Hacker News but these comment chains have just been so exasperating. I'd like to know how many people actually believe that science is engaged in a widespread effort to dissimulate the truth of sex differences? Everyone knows that there is a sexual dimorphism in humans. It's not that pronounced compared to other species. Our dimorphism is not anomalous amongst great apes, nor is it indi…

Is this a fair summary of your argument? 1) Women are suffering under the current power structure. 2) Interpersonal variation is being used as an argument to support the current power structure. 3) Therefore, as a good person I must deny interpersonal variation.

I think it is a terrible summary, but I'll assume it's because of a failure to communicate on my part.

(3) does not follow from (2) and (1) together. What does follow is a need to analyse the argument further. I didn't make this analysis, I only sketched it in broad outlines. Let me put out my thoughts in a different way:

A) There is no causal link established between measured sex-linked variation in humans and social organization in humans, beyond the obvious one that the distribution of physical size and strength is strongly bimodal and this can be observed as an underlying basis for many social relationships.

B) And yet, the argument is made. The argument is made and it is presumed to be rational, objective, air-tight, and deductive. In fact, it is an abductive argument: It claims that sex-linked variation is the most likely and simplest basis for the observed social organization that leads to the stratification of society based on binary genders in bourgeois society.

I am specifying bourgeois society and assuming we are talking about modern capitalist societies, because that's the one I live in and the one I have most to gain in analyzing, and also the one whose ideology and real power dominates the planet as a whole.

C) I can accrue a great deal of data that demonstrates corroborated observations that the dynamics of gender in bourgeois society are actively maintained through institutional and systemic structure. This data ranges from the scientific, collected in aggregate, to the personal experiences of a diverse group of individuals.

A huge amount of human effort and ideology goes into gender as a social structure. This expenditure of labor and thought is prescriptive in nature, not descriptive. The argument being made neither explains their existence nor their dynamics because it solely describes variation at a very basic level between human beings. If human beings just naturally organized themselves along the gender lines we see, there would be no need for institutions, social mores, and propaganda to maintain those lines. What we see historically though, is that these lines were drawn by human hands, then dug out, then built upon with concrete, and then stringed up with barbed wire. The argument does not take this historical and sociological context into account and does not even try to exempt our present societies from that context.

D) This situation is incongruous. The argument is not only given more strength than it merits, its conclusions are essentially determined within the philosophical framework it is formulated in, and further it does not account for social and personal observations about gender dynamics. A criticism of the underlying ideology that produces and reproduces this argument is required. I conjecture that the underlying ideology is neoliberal rationality and sketched what that means.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once found a "casual encounters" ad on craigslist, in which a woman sought men to attend a certain type of party, which type I do not remember. I looked it up at Urban Dictionary, the objective of that kind of party is to impregnate as many women as possible. I contemplated attending but then concluded that I want to know who my children are, and that they would want to know who their father is. Even under the best…

I suspect this is not unusual. I was asked to be a sperm donor at a party by a lesbian couple I'd never met before. They were completely serious, but the catch was no contact with the child. The problem with arguments from reproductive psychology is that we know very little about reproductive psychology in history. So modern ideas about female partner choice shaping genetics aren't necessarily a given. It's not unlik…

"both ends of the bimodal curve"

Technically it's still a unimodal curve (single mode, roughly at the center of the distribution - i.e. ~= mean, median), it's just that the variance is increased.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a fair summary of your argument? 1) Women are suffering under the current power structure. 2) Interpersonal variation is being used as an argument to support the current power structure. 3) Therefore, as a good person I must deny interpersonal variation.

I think it is a terrible summary, but I'll assume it's because of a failure to communicate on my part. (3) does not follow from (2) and (1) together. What does follow is a need to analyse the argument further. I didn't make this analysis, I only sketched it in broad outlines. Let me put out my thoughts in a different way: A) There is no causal link established between measured sex-linked variation in humans and socia…

> It claims that sex-linked variation is the most likely and simplest basis for the observed social organization

Who claims that? Not me. I just want to know if sex differences exist, where they come from, and how big they are.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#234

I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…

Most of what we believe about gender is based on societal beliefs rather than biological reality. I am reminded about how high heels were worn by men in the past and the preferred colors for boys and girls (pink and blue) were switched. ( http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-st... ; http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21151350 ) Our faulty assumptions become clear when viewing other societies. For e…

The communist countries placed a greater emphasis on gender equality in workforce.

They also give the individual very little choice in their future career, while the final assignment is based predominantly on (at least in the case of China) the outcome of a single test.

So while it differs from the American process, I don't think you can hold it up as a correct normative solution.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#235

I'd much rather prefer to lurk Hacker News but these comment chains have just been so exasperating. I'd like to know how many people actually believe that science is engaged in a widespread effort to dissimulate the truth of sex differences? Everyone knows that there is a sexual dimorphism in humans. It's not that pronounced compared to other species. Our dimorphism is not anomalous amongst great apes, nor is it indi…

Suppose greater male variance is true, how should feminists respond? Well, if they think more high IQ females would be good, there are things like embryo selection and iterated embryo selection that would vastly overwhelm greater variance. If you combined iterated embryo selection with sex selection against males, you could vastly increase the number of genius women. So even if you grant greater variance, this is all…

You don't have to reach into science fiction to see this. The concept of biopower outlines how modern ideologies mold human life to their structures.

Feminism has always been allied with radical and revolutionary biopolitics. It does not need eugenics and futuristic bioengineering to be so. Furthermore, the idea that feminists give a shit about sex-linked variation is nonsensical and I really hope I did not give that impression in my parent comment. It's quite the opposite. The whole point I was trying to make was that feminists don't care about this level of difference, that their ideology is engaged at the structural level of society and that this engagement is completely unintelligible without deeper criticism.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#236
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that procreation requires one man and one woman to participate, it's going to be really hard to practice eugenics based on genetic differences between the sexes.

Did you miss China during the "one-child" policy era[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#Effect_on_inf...

Sex-selective abortion is not eugenics. Nobody with even the most cursory understanding of human reproduction thinks that you'll permanently alter the gene pool by selecting one sex over another. This is totally unrelated, and I'm rather sad that I managed to get not one but two replies bringing it up, as if it were somehow relevant. The quality of this discussion is just astonishingly bad.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#237
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but the gulf between that and "there is some genetic differences between the sexes" is still so large that you'd need a powerful telescope to see from one to the other.

As much as I disagree with your overall viewpoints, I'll agree on this one you have here. For a lot of individuals, the gap that you mention is huge such as to not have an immediate, explicit effect, and for one particular reason: Something as simple as validating and completely "accepting" the notion that "there is[sic] some genetic differences between the sexes" requires individuals to throw out entire swathes of s…

Equality isn't about people being literally identical. Nobody actually believes that. There are troubling facts like how men as a rule have a really hard time becoming pregnant that nobody denies.

Equality is about equal treatment. It's about judging the individual on their own merits, not some group they happen to belong to. "Men and women are equal" doesn't mean women are equally muscular and men can have babies. It means that when writing a law, selecting an employee, or counting a vote, you don't change your approach based on whether the person is a man or a woman.

There is nothing wrong with saying, for example, most of our warehouse workers are men because more men are able to do the heavy lifting required. There's nothing unequal about that. What equality demands is that you never say, I will not consider you for a warehouse job, regardless of your actual strength, because you are a woman and all women are too weak for it.

It's not actually that complicated IMO.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#238
post #212
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about murdering people. The problem is, if you support policies that disadvantage people based on their genetics, you can gradually dehumanize those people. The (real) disadvantages of that outweigh the (supposed) advantages.

But if you are disadvantaging people that have objectively inferior genetics? Do you actually lose anything? Otherwise, are those people taking advantage of medical advances that prevent their deficiencies from being fatal?

What does "objectively inferior" mean?

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK. Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in…

Yes, but more and more, courts and laws try to enforce "equal outcomes" and not "equal opportunity."

Where do they do that? Even the notorious punching bag of Affirmative Action is intended to make up for prior bias, not force equal outcomes regardless of all merit. (Whether it actually does that is another question, but "try to enforce" is all about intent.)

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK. Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in…

> Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in combat roles, and lower the standards for women so they have just as much of a chance as men have." I've literally never heard the latter argument made by a…

Where have all the different standards for men and women in the armed forces come from, then? The Army and Navy both have different physical fitness standards for men and women. I didn't look up other branches but I don't expect them to be any different. I wouldn't expect there to be a big push for different standards because that's already where things are now.
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