Earlier quoted context omitted.
That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK. Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in…
I hesitate to bring up extreme cases, but the relationship between social darwinism and the rise of the nazi party make many people, including myself, very hesitant to speak about differences in sex etc. Not because we deny their existence, but because we've seen how far large groups of uninformed electorate can be persuaded into supporting some scary stuff because of it. It's just a very tricky subject when it comes…
How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
151–160 of 297 posts
Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
#152I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…
> gender is a cultural construct Trans people such as myself are proof that gender is not a social construct. In my experience, the nastiest transphobes are the ones who believe gender is a social construct. They're called TERFs. They can't wrap their minds around the fact that we prove their pet theories wrong, so they stalk, harass, and doxx us.
I've always viewed gender & sex as being an issue of parts or lack of parts a human is born with, and gender is their sexual personality or preferences.
Do you believe there are specific (limited in quantity) genders?
Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not the masses you need to be worried about, hiou. It wasn't the masses gassing people by the millions... it was the elites, who got a few people to go along with them. "The masses" organize poorly... it's the people who are smart enough to successfully do something with their bad idea, but not smart enough to see through the bad idea, that must be feared. The deep-rooted fear of academia isn't that the masses m…
Did you really manage to blame academics for the Holocaust in a mere four sentences? That's really impressive!
This is not something "the masses" do, because "the masses" do not have the ability to successfully run with an idea and gather enough power to impose it.
It's not just the holocaust, either. There's a huge history of 20th-century "social engineering" that rather a lot of people would rather forget, because it pretty uniformly went badly. See also "eugenics" for another reason that academics are afraid to think too hard about how people may be different or how genes may determine things about people... and not entirely without reason. "The masses" did not impose eugenics. In fact a lot of eugenics had to be hidden from the masses.
With power comes the power to screw up. Academics have a lot of power. It would be strange if they'd never screwed up.
Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
#1542. article from 2011
How does this qualify as "hacker news"?
Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
#155I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…
In all honesty, I see more consistent whining about 'feminism taking over' than I do actual gender politics in day-to-day HN.
Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
#156I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…
> gender is a cultural construct Trans people such as myself are proof that gender is not a social construct. In my experience, the nastiest transphobes are the ones who believe gender is a social construct. They're called TERFs. They can't wrap their minds around the fact that we prove their pet theories wrong, so they stalk, harass, and doxx us.
Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
#157I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…
> gender is a cultural construct Trans people such as myself are proof that gender is not a social construct. In my experience, the nastiest transphobes are the ones who believe gender is a social construct. They're called TERFs. They can't wrap their minds around the fact that we prove their pet theories wrong, so they stalk, harass, and doxx us.
Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you really manage to blame academics for the Holocaust in a mere four sentences? That's really impressive!
It's not just "academics". It's anyone who can take an idea and successfully run with it, without stopping to notice all the signs that are yelling at them "Stop! This isn't working as you expected!" Academia merely happens to have a large concentration of such people, for structural reasons. (The "ivory tower" is a real effect, and it is both a good thing because it permits concentration and focus, and a bad thing,…
Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yup, "insignificant" is the wrong word, since it has a specific meaning in statistics, and for that meaning, my paragraph is definitely wrong. How about if I change that word: "But at an individual level, that difference becomes trivial."
I get what you mean, regardless of wording. People should be seen as individuals. I don't know how we can be blind to aggregate differences enough to not be perturbed when we have unequal outcomes but not so cognizant of them that we demotivate people. But as I write this, I'm arriving at an answer: we need to recognize that people are making choices based upon who they are and what they like.
For example, at one point in history our IQ tests included questions based on baseball rules. So someone taking the test that didn't know the rules of baseball couldn't do well – regardless of their mathematical or logical ability, i.e. what the question was supposedly measuring.
Along those lines, I would strongly:
- recommend listening to the Hanselminutes episode on Women in Technology in the Muslim World (http://hanselminutes.com/203/women-in-technology-in-the-musl...)
- remind people that the first programmer was Ada Lovelace, and computers used to be actual people and mostly female (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer) & suggest reading some of the reasons this changed (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmin...)
In other words, culture can strongly impact both perceptions of ability and measurements of ability, as well as impacting the equitable training and opportunity that people are afforded. I suspect that most differences in most fields are not actual sex differences (i.e. biological), but in fact are social differences based on gender (i.e. cultural based on a person's gender identity).
Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?
#160I'd like to know how many people actually believe that science is engaged in a widespread effort to dissimulate the truth of sex differences? Everyone knows that there is a sexual dimorphism in humans. It's not that pronounced compared to other species. Our dimorphism is not anomalous amongst great apes, nor is it indicative of much: Our closest relatives are Chimpanzees and Bonobos where the former form hierarchical male dominated communities while the latter form egalitarian communities.
Let me ask some questions just as an efficient way of throwing up historical and social context. These questions are rhetorical and aren't even the best questions to ask. I don't want to spend a lot of time thinking up the best questions. I think a few examples are enough to convey the general line of inquiry I'd like to show is possible.
Do the differences between humans caused by sexual variation account for the structure of our society? If yes, when did this become the case? Was it the case in 1800 United States of America when married women could not own property? Was that caused by some sort of sex-linked genetic variation?
Was it the case in the 1940's when lobotomies were in vogue, and most of the operations performed were on women? Do women have some sort of sex-linked genetic flaw that leads to brains that need to be lobotomized?
Is the nuclear family a primordial family unit optimized for the innate sex-linked variations between humans that form viable reproductive pairings, or is it optimized for the division of labor and capital of bourgeois society?
When exactly were the unimpeachable doctrines of male supremacy promulgated by law, church, and capitalism purged from our consciousnesses, our institutions, our social networks, our education centers, our philosophy, our _science_ so that society immediately restructured along more _objective_ lines where all individuals realize their full potential and enter into the social relationships most suitable to their essential nature?
Because that is the subtext that speckles this page. That male supremacy was banished from human reason and what remains is a hegemony based on some _rational_ _objectively verifiable_ sex-linked variation that is unimpeachable by human means. The power structures in which this truth is intelligible, that verifies and reproduces this truth is left implicit, because it is normalized in so many social groups, HN intersecting with a great many of them. I don't think I am capable of deconstructing this logic, but I will just throw out my conjecture:
This is the neoliberal paradigm squaring its beliefs in the free market, meritocracy, minimal governance, the free flow and concentration of capital, dissimulation of relations of power, the privatization of ever more institutions, the application of market rationality to all spheres of human activity, an epistemology based on private institutions and capitals competing in a market of ideas, and the refusal to regard as legitimate any theory that posits power structures and modes of truth that do not follow analytically from these doctrines, with systemic inequality. The cause _must be_ the sublimation of truth from the market of _free_ individuals pursuing their rational self-interest, where the market and the pursuits it comprises _define_ truth.
As a last note, I don't think I am familiar with much feminist theory that tries to dissimulate sexual differences. In fact, many feminists would probably agree that the most significant and easily verifiable sex-linked variation between people accounts for a great deal of interpersonal inequality between men and women: Men are bigger and stronger and thus have an easier time getting what they want through personal violence. But this is in fact a minor point. There have been a great many societies on this Earth, in spite of their systematic obliteration and assimilation throughout the years, ever accelerating to meet the hunger of capitalist societies for new places and peoples to put on the market. They have had varying levels of equity between people-- there are even non-binary systems of gender, and their existence ought to pique and interest to critically examine the cultural institutions that separate and regulate the biopolitical realities of people in bourgeois society.
Feminist theory, by and large, especially the theories of leftist feminists (none of that bourgeois, liberal crap) emphasize systemic inequality, not interpersonal variation. They certainly don't need to resort to such minutiae when so much effective theory and action has been executed against institutionally imposed male supremacy. It seems that it is a tenacious enemy though. Once it can no longer reproduce itself along certain power structures (e.g. church) it will find ways through more contemporarily legitimate power structures (e.g. neoliberal rationality).