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210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

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Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#231

Previous discussion about their move to Holacracy [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9431090 [1] http://holacracy.org/how-it-works Has anybody operated under Holacracy and speak to it?

We tried it, disliked it as a whole, and dropped it while retaining those ideas we found useful.

But then, we're a small company, with an already (nearly) flat structure, and already built around largely self-determining teams. So what Holacracy offered above what we already had was rigid structure, and cumbersome terminology.

It also has a weird religious vibe in that the Holacracy franchise holders who we turned to for input on our implementation of it refused to work with us unless we adhered to the defined process 100%. No modifying it to suit our company.

The formal governance meeting process caused a severe backlash when rigidly adhered to because it only allowed one "reaction round"[1], so if someone else's reaction caused a new viewpoint to arise in your mind, but you had already spoken, too bad. Our facilitator who had attended the training rigidly enforced this process, and several people, myself included, felt silenced.

So yeah, as we weren't a traditionally pyramid structured company to begin with, we had very little to gain from it - we tried it because we had started with 5 employees and no governance beyond "let's ask the boss", and we had grown to a point where we needed to get _some_ governance in place, because while intra-team decisions were fine and dandy, how we made decisions affecting everyone was really unclear.

So in the end, we dropped it. We have kept some of the ideas we found useful, for example the separation between governance and tactical meetings, and the idea of the 'lead link' or their equivalent being opposed by the 'rep link' equivalent, in our case, it's our proxy product owners (PPO) and their eternal opponents are our scrum masters. It's a healthy tension between what the business wants and what the team wants.

The other valuable thing we've kept was the objection and objection testing process - if someone has an idea, objecting just because you don't like it is not considered valid. You need to be able to present a coherent argument as to how the proposal, if adopted, would harm the company. It means that the "Bah humbug" curmudgeons can't stall innovation. Basically it boils down to "Would it hurt us to try this?" as a test for a new idea.

So now our governance consists of a small group of 'executives' for want of a better word, and what we call "The General Circle". The "executives" is our boss and two 2ICs (to increase our bus factor to keep our business team happy) one with an HR and finance focus, the other with a businss analysis / product development focus. This group's primary focus is the relationship with our business team, but it also handles the aspects of running a company that require handling an employee's confidential information, like pay reviews and HR issues.

But every other cross-company decision is made by the General Circle, a group consisting of the PPO and scrum master from each team, plus our finance and HR specialists. These discussions are totally open to anyone else who wants to attend, and our financial performance is tabled as a matter of course, with more detailed numbers and budgets available for the curious. PPOs are theoretically appointed by the General Circle (our existing PPOs were in their roles before this governance guff, so no new ones have needed to be appointed yet), while Scrum Masters are selected by the team however they like. I think all our teams rotate it every six months or so.

Oh, and we also like the election process from Holacracy - write down a person's name on a piece of paper, with your name on it, and then in the discussion, you say why. After everyone has explained their reasoning, people can then change their votes if they heard a good point that persuaded them.

[1]: http://wiki.holacracy.org/index.php?title=Governance_Meeting...

Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#232

I work at a company that was in bad shape during the financial crisis. A temporary CEO was put in charge. Ultimately, a number of companies were merged to create one company that could survive. In the end, one of the CEO's of the merged companies became the CEO of the final company. His first act as CEO was to offer everyone in the company a tenure-based package to leave the company. I don't know the full numbers, bu…

This is the risk (the "wrong" people taking the buyout). It was the source of a lawsuit during one of HPs many acquisitions and then downsizes where HP tried to give "selected" individuals the option to leave early, and the folks who were not given the option sued. The courts affirmed that you could not give preferential treatment for early retirement/severance it was everyone had the same choice or no one did. For w…

a la 'Office Space'

Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#233
post #82
post #54

Every time this comes up, I have one simple question that I have yet to have answered to any degree of satisfaction. (Someone who endorses this structure) explain to me in one sentence with fewer than 20 words how a 'lead link' is not the same role as a 'manager'.

I actually don't like the way they've defined lead link in Holacracy. It does feel too manager-like because they have the ability to create roles or remove people from roles. We had this as a stepping stone at GrantTree, in our previous implementation of holarchy (note: that's not the same as holacracy, it's just one subset of holacracy that deals with how to organise work without organising people) but since then, w…

Fail.

Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#234
post #213
post #126

I'm not sure how to gauge this. I think Holacracy may be one of the dumber pseudo-science management theories that's ever come out. If it works for Zappos I'll eat my hat I guess, but I have a feeling that all we'll hear about it is that "it's working great!" as the ship goes down in flames. Holacracy and other ultra-flat org structures always share two features: - It consolidates power in the people at the top (the…

Seems to work for Valve, with a few obvious problems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation#Organizationa...

Talk to employees and you may hear differently.

Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#235

Strange it isn't former CEO as you wouldn't have a CEO in a flat company. Seems hypocritical to me, but maybe it isn't and I don't get the distinction.

I am wondering this too. Is it flat with a handful of executives on top?

Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#236
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's easy to forget that zappos was acquired by amazon. i am interested to what extent sales growth or lack thereof, would be a driver of radical restructuring.

I think that Amazon is content to let Zappos experiment. If Zappos loses customers, statistically most of them will end up at Amazon anyway. Tony Hsieh is pretty out there, and a lot of his ideas sound kind of crazy, but I think Bezos believes in him and is willing to let him try. Even though everyone says "Oh, that won't work" you don't know until you try. If Zappos can experiment with a new leadership style, maybe…

It's a great place to work. There, you can no longer say "you never heard it's a great place to work". Sample size of 1, but I love it.

Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#237
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three months is cool, but it's a big reordering of life. If you enjoy your job, you shouldn't take it. Maybe your next job is worse. And people in SV say "every good developer has 5 offers waiting for him by breakfast" but it's not that way in every part of the country. On the other hand, if you've been contemplating a job change, take it.

I believe Zappos is in Las Vegas. And they're not really a tech company, although they use tech.

> they're not really a tech company

By your definition, what is a tech company?

Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#238
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lead link can appoint people to roles, but the people have autonomy in that role. A manager has the authority to both appoint roles and micromanage execution. Also, there is a parallel to lead link called rep link who is appointed by the lead link's circle to check against bad decisions/behavior by the lead link.

If they also have the authority to remove people from roles, how do they not also have the authority to micromanage execution, at least not indirectly?

They would have to go out of their way to do it. It would be brought up as a tension and if people were unhappy with the link lead, the rep lead would bring it up to the link lead's higher-up circle (rep lead is a circle-elected peer of the link lead.)

So, instead of having direct authority to micromanage, they only have indirect possibility of micromanaging and there are explicit checks built in to prevent it.

Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#239
post #126

I'm not sure how to gauge this. I think Holacracy may be one of the dumber pseudo-science management theories that's ever come out. If it works for Zappos I'll eat my hat I guess, but I have a feeling that all we'll hear about it is that "it's working great!" as the ship goes down in flames. Holacracy and other ultra-flat org structures always share two features: - It consolidates power in the people at the top (the…

Well, today Paddy Ashdown in the UK said he'd eat his hat if the exit polls in the UK were correct.

They were correct. He didn't eat a hat.

No matter what happens, you won't eat a hat.

No matter what happens at zappo's I can 100% guarantee you will never eat a hat. I will 100% confirm that you will never, ever eat a hat because you are a liar. The only thing we can be 100% sure about is that you are a liar who will never eat a hat. I'm not going to offer to eat a hat if you eat a hat, because I'd be a liar as I'd never eat a hat, but I am confidant in saying you are a complete and utter liar who we should ignore because you won't ever eat a hat. Ever. You lied, you are a liar and you will never, ever, ever eat a hat.

So the complete and utter liar and completely pointless commentator in this entire escapade is you.

You said something, we shouldn't listen to it.

Simply because you are a liar who will never, ever eat a hat even if you are wrong.

My Dad once offered to eat a hat. Not to me, but to the local paper. Ultimately, he was right. He was still an idiot for offering to eat a hat. Because he wouldn't have eaten that hat.

Re: 210 Zappos employees – 14% of the staff – take buyouts after CEO ultimatum

#240

I love the idea, but can a company that big really survive without management? Didn't Google backtrack on a similar idea?

There's still management in Holacracy, but it's not a full-time paid role, it's devolved into groups.
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