Girls and Software • Hacker News Board

Re: Girls and Software

#231

Post by Crito » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:28 AM UTC

archagon wrote: post #220

Crito wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that desensitization is an inherently bad thing. There are any number of things that people become desensitized to as they grow up. In this modern society, there are many adults who have never so much as seen a dead body (having never even gone to wakes). In previous generations, and in different societies, seeing dead bodies is common place and does not have the same power to disturb. Does it harm a ch…

Surely you would agree that there are limits, socially determined or otherwise? Would you be OK with your child seeing a motorcyclist's head blown off? A man's distended anus? There are no limits on the internet. I saw all these things because I didn't know any better, or because I was morbidly curious. It didn't ruin me or give me PTSD or anything, but it definitely shaped my personality. I regret it now, in my mid-…

I'd draw the line at where PTSD is actually induced. IE, actual damage.

Replace "motorcyclist missing a head" with "photos of Hiroshima or liberated nazi death camps" and I don't think anybody would think it particularly strange that disturbing images are available to view. Yeah, there is historic significance behind those examples, but that doesn't really come into play when considering the effects of disturbing images on people, does it?

Re: Girls and Software

#232

Post by 70forty » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:33 AM UTC

pantalaimon wrote: post #227

simias wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Having unlimited access to technological resources is great, I don't think anybody is denying that. But with unlimited net access also comes extremely violent videos, social networks with all kinds of shady types hanging around etc... I really don't think it's responsible to let a 9-12 yo alone on the net in their room. Enabling them to access the net easily while still supervising what they do, giving…

Don't say you didn't browse rotten.com when you were 13, we would do so on school computers even before I had internet at home. (meh, now the page is only displaying odd advertisements for silly smartphone apps)

Yep, rotten.com among others exposed me to things that I'm sure would've horrified my parents if they knew. I don't regret it though, I think it shaped me positively. I was around 11 when I saw this for instance:

http://www.sibkray.ru/upload/blog/e4b/07.jpg (extremely NSFW)

I still consider it to be the most powerful image I've ever seen. It made me realize the absolute horror of war, in an instant. I would rather my child see this image than witness the cartoon violence of Call of Duty and then see military propaganda like the commercial below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkKF4ZcqW14

Kids can handle reality with the right guidance. I have been "desensitized" I suppose, but only in that I'm capable of seeing similar images without cringing. Hopefully that would extend to a situation in which someone was critically injured, I would be able to jump in and help them without hesitation or squeamishness over the blood/gore involved.

Re: Girls and Software

#233

Post by archagon » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:37 AM UTC

dkuntz2 wrote: post #228

archagon wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you would agree that there are limits, socially determined or otherwise? Would you be OK with your child seeing a motorcyclist's head blown off? A man's distended anus? There are no limits on the internet. I saw all these things because I didn't know any better, or because I was morbidly curious. It didn't ruin me or give me PTSD or anything, but it definitely shaped my personality. I regret it now, in my mid-…

I think the crux is that you were "morbidly curious". Being denied access through one medium isn't going to deter someone curious enough. Sure the internet is a HUGE medium, and it's a lot easier to get access to that material using the internet, but that content's been around for almost as long as we've had photography. Why exactly do you regret it?

I was morbidly curious to the extent that if somebody put a nasty link in front of me, I would have followed it. But I didn't actively seek those things out. To some extent, it was a test of macho-ness: can I handle this gore? What about this birth defect? I think a lot of kids are like that.

I regret it because I feel it's shaped my personality, lessened my sense of empathy, and put a bunch of disgusting images in my head that I'll never be able to get rid of.

Re: Girls and Software

#234

Post by archagon » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:39 AM UTC

Crito wrote: post #231

archagon wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you would agree that there are limits, socially determined or otherwise? Would you be OK with your child seeing a motorcyclist's head blown off? A man's distended anus? There are no limits on the internet. I saw all these things because I didn't know any better, or because I was morbidly curious. It didn't ruin me or give me PTSD or anything, but it definitely shaped my personality. I regret it now, in my mid-…

I'd draw the line at where PTSD is actually induced. IE, actual damage. Replace "motorcyclist missing a head" with "photos of Hiroshima or liberated nazi death camps" and I don't think anybody would think it particularly strange that disturbing images are available to view. Yeah, there is historic significance behind those examples, but that doesn't really come into play when considering the effects of disturbing ima…

I could be wrong, but I think PTSD can be induced with images.

The Hiroshima/Nazi photos were powerful because they were such a rare display of extreme violence. (At least, that's how I remember feeling when I first saw them.) Plus, their impact was lessened because they were grainy, old, and black and white. Would you be OK with kids today seeing a modern mass grave -- bodies hacked up, heads cut off, etc.? Me, I'd be wary.

Re: Girls and Software

#235

Post by 10feet » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:44 AM UTC

imsofuture wrote: post #55

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

Yep. I wouldn't be much of a technologist if not for computer games (to get me onto the computer), and vast quantities of unsupervised and unfiltered internet at a formative age.

WTF is a technologist?

Re: Girls and Software

#236

Post by Crito » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:47 AM UTC

archagon wrote: post #234

Crito wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd draw the line at where PTSD is actually induced. IE, actual damage. Replace "motorcyclist missing a head" with "photos of Hiroshima or liberated nazi death camps" and I don't think anybody would think it particularly strange that disturbing images are available to view. Yeah, there is historic significance behind those examples, but that doesn't really come into play when considering the effects of disturbing ima…

I could be wrong, but I think PTSD can be induced with images. The Hiroshima/Nazi photos were powerful because they were such a rare display of extreme violence. (At least, that's how I remember feeling when I first saw them.) Plus, their impact was lessened because they were grainy, old, and black and white. Would you be OK with kids today seeing a modern mass grave -- bodies hacked up, heads cut off, etc.? Me, I'd…

If there was a decent chance of standard internet gore causing PTSD, then it would be an epidemic. Most kids have unfiltered unsupervised access to the internet (particularly now in the era of portable internet connected devices), but they seem to be turning out fine.

I think it is good for kids to see photographs of modern atrocities and war crimes. I wouldn't want them to make the mistake of assuming that is something restricted to fiction and history.

I don't think the "physically ill" feeling is necessary to appreciate the severity or magnitude of those sort of images. In fact, I suspect those sort of feelings cloud the mind and prevent you from taking it all in. An academic appreciation for the horrors of reality is more important that a "gastrointestinal" appreciation.

Re: Girls and Software

#237

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:50 AM UTC

Crito wrote: post #236

archagon wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could be wrong, but I think PTSD can be induced with images. The Hiroshima/Nazi photos were powerful because they were such a rare display of extreme violence. (At least, that's how I remember feeling when I first saw them.) Plus, their impact was lessened because they were grainy, old, and black and white. Would you be OK with kids today seeing a modern mass grave -- bodies hacked up, heads cut off, etc.? Me, I'd…

If there was a decent chance of standard internet gore causing PTSD, then it would be an epidemic . Most kids have unfiltered unsupervised access to the internet (particularly now in the era of portable internet connected devices), but they seem to be turning out fine. I think it is good for kids to see photographs of modern atrocities and war crimes. I wouldn't want them to make the mistake of assuming that is somet…

[deleted]

Re: Girls and Software

#238

Post by Crake » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:54 AM UTC

mtrimpe wrote: post #40

Crake wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the other hand it has a pretty strong "I got mine" component to it, where she laments the negative effects these changes have had on her personally but doesn't acknowledge that while she's in a position she likes that doesn't at all mean it is, or would be, like that for many others. These special ed for women programming events are harmful to all women, not just women who already program. You can't de-emphasize…

I don't think either of us is capable of making definitive statements on the harm of women-only education programs, so I'll stay out of that. I do believe however that it's completely and utterly impossible to improve gender dynamics without putting emphasis on it. Using the (un)conscious (in)competence learning model [1] as a reference what you're saying is essentially that we should just go from unconscious incompe…

>I don't think either of us is capable of making definitive statements on the harm of women-only education programs

Well, it's pretty much a given that they're increasing sex based discrimination in the world. Both as a primary effect ("we only take people with vaginas") as well as a significant secondary effect ("wait, so I can't go because I'm a boy?").

>I do believe however that it's completely and utterly impossible to improve gender dynamics without putting emphasis on it.

It's a free country, so you're free to believe that. Just acknowledge that you're an advocate for sex-based discrimination. Incidentally, this makes you a sexist.

Re: Girls and Software

#239

Post by Crake » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:58 AM UTC

mtrimpe wrote: post #21

pdonis wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your quote is a good one, but I like this one even better: I came to the Open Source world because I liked being part of a community where my ideas, my skills and my experience mattered, not my boobs. That's changed, and it's changed at the hands of the people who say they want a community where ideas, skills and experience matter more than boobs. I don't at all see her failing to acknowledge that she was fortunate--…

The thing is though that she is in a very rare, privileged position. She liked her community, fit in well, felt protected and cared for, wasn't troubled by the gender ratio and all in all was just happy with her situation. For a very large amount of women that is unfortunately not the case nowadays and unfortunately her situation is not typical in the slightest and I didn't see much actionable advice to improve on th…

>Ever since that generation the gender gap has been widening

Well, it might have something to do with the huge emphasis on judging people based on their gender that the feminists and sjws have been shoving down everyone's throats lately.

Seriously, she doesn't like the increasing number of women only events because they make it harder for women (at all stages of their careers) to be accepted like everyone else. Surprise, emphasizing someone's gender as the most important thing about you makes people more likely to treat you differently because of it.

I'm part of the younger generation, and I feel exactly the same way she does. These sexist policies are making my life WAY more difficult. I'm jealous of people who got to experience tech before it got popular enough to become a target for feminists.

>You do not represent all women in technology. You get to represent yourself.

Any given feminist will happily claim to be the voice of all women everywhere. It's only when a woman disagrees with their dogma that a woman is only allowed to speak for herself.

Re: Girls and Software

#240

Post by Crake » Mon, Feb 10, 2014, 4:59 AM UTC

HedgeMage wrote: post #134

japhyr wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since it is impossible to autonomously do payments on the internet before age 18, my parents' willingness to let me use their credit card I'm a high school teacher, and I teach some intro programming classes once in a while. I teach primarily low-income/ at-risk students, and this is one piece of the puzzle that keeps my students from gaining more real-world experience. It's a hard issue, too, because you can rack…

Recent bank reforms in the US created a requirement for any institution offering any checking account to offer at least one checking account option with no fees and no overdraft protection. At my banker's suggestion, I opened this type of account for my son. He has a debit card, but no checks. When he runs out of money, the debit card gets rejected -- no debt and no overdraft fees are possible. It's a great tool for…

>Recent bank reforms in the US created a requirement for any institution offering any checking account to offer at least one checking account option with no fees and no overdraft protection.

Can you show this option available for, say, Chase? I hadn't heard of this reform, and I'm a bit skeptical it exists. (Although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.)