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Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

johannakoll.posterous.com

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Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#231

Post by w0utert »

singular wrote: post #226
w0utert wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>So do you suggest that the way women are represented + put to use in the media/marketing is okay? >> There's an obvious point being made when a slide with women clad in bikinis is shown at a geeky male-dominated conference. >> Personally I find what marketing does to women both when advertising to them and advertising using them utterly despicable.[/quote] Oh come on, please... The point being made is very likely n…

> Oh come on, please... ...Be a little more polite. 'Oh come on, please' does not contribute to a reasonable discussion, rather encourages a flame session which is useless for all concerned. > If you take big issue with that (like you seem to do), your problem is with the simple evolutionary fact that men fancy good-looking women, good luck trying to change that... Or perhaps I have a problem with what they use it fo…

I really believe you should lighten up a little. I can see where you're coming from and I don't disagree with everything you say, but from the way you put things in your comments in this topic, I get the impression you're drawing the line too far from where it really matters. Distasteful use of imagery containing scarcely clad women usually doesn't imply sexism.

I agree with the unrealistic anorexic photoshopped models you see on ads and magazine covers, but I'm not sure whether I can even attribute that to 'sexism', as it appears to be the fashion ideal for many women, for whatever reason. None of my male friends even like that kind of look, and yet it's somehow the norm in fashion and lifestyle targeted at women. Is that sexist? Why do women think men find anorexic women attractive? Could there be other reasons things are the way they are, that are unrelated to sexism?

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#232

Post by PeterisP »

dasil003 wrote: post #229
[deleted] wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Sigh How could you possibly come to the conclusion that "jokes which reinforce the current power structure" are equivalent to jokes about dead babies, torture or genocide? Especially after I opened my comment explaining that yes, in fact, you can make a joke about any subject matter . It's like you didn't even read my comment at all, you just glanced a keyword signifying a binary position and then you decided to dump…

Sorry, I was too rash.

What do you think about the assymetry of, for example, the classic "[A], [B], [C] walk into a bar" jokes, where an ethnic /racial/profession/etc group C is crudely belittled and made fun of?

In practice, such jokes are seen as acceptable if C is a major/nonthreatened group, but the exact same joke would be offensive if C is swapped to a smaller/more vulnerable faction - does that match what you feel?

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#233

Post by str8gk »

rmc wrote: post #191
str8gk wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

women get pregnant

So? It's not legal to discriminate based on gender, or family status. The people reviewing CVs didn't claim to be taking this into account (and odds are, weren't). This evidence shows they were taking things into account that they thought they were.

its illegal - what's your point? If you were hiring ( using your own money ) would you want to take that risk? illegal lol that's a good one

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#234

Post by str8gk »

halostatue wrote: post #212
sgt wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's human, politically incorrect jokes are just a part of who we are. This lady is just really up-tight and probably not very pleasant to be around, and I'm sure if you stuck a lump of coal in a particular location, in two weeks you'd have a diamond.

Thank you so very much for proving her point that there are a lot of sexist pigs in our industry, and that you're one of them.

Thank you for proving everyone else's point that there are a lot of humourless dummies in our industry, and that you're one of them

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#235

Post by elemenohpee »

coldtea wrote: post #210
elemenohpee wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not advocating politeness, I'm advocating for an egalitarian society. Women have historically been less free to express themselves, and sexist jokes and other discriminatory language continue to silence them. Douche was not the correct term, you are a coward. Rather than defend the freedom of those who have had to fight for it, you hide behind your own narcissistic conception of freedom and unexamined privilege.

You're "advocating for an egalitarian society"? I'm even _more_ for an egalitarian society. And far more actually than merely getting some "bikini slides" off of tech presentations or ensuring women make the same as men. I don't want women and men being paid less than other men and women and being treated as trash in the first place. That is, i'm a pro-left, in the marxist tradition. Now, do I get to call you a "cowa…

I'm a marxist as well, so you're preaching to the choir there. I also happen to be an anarchist, and rather than putting laws in place (which would be impossible to enforce), I think the first step to changing these issues is to change the culture.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#236

Post by halostatue »

oellegaard wrote: post #227
halostatue wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're selling underwear or sex…it is. You should carefully consider whether {sex,gender,race,religion,politics,…} is germane to the discussion that you're trying to engender with your presentation. If you're a fashion designer talking about your latest underwear fashion? Go for it. If you're presenting about gender issues? Go for it—but be careful that your slide materials don't undermine the message. If you'…

So what if you are selling fitness subscriptions? Check out this video and tell me it is not funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuF4_cWghGY (no women inside..) He says something like: "After I started in FitnessDK i got so popular, that the only way I got get some alone-time is to take a fish-shower". As long as you don't put a specific gender in a certain role or use them to show that the other gender is superior…

I have three responses to that:

1. That's an ad, not a presentation at a conference. There are different "rules" for ads, but even those have to comply with local norms and expectations (it would not, for example, be aired in the U.S.).

2. It's mildly funny, yes—but only because you provided a translation. It's also sexist and people could legitimately find it offensive. The ad is a variation on the themes represented in the various AXE Effect advertisements (e.g., this product/service has made me so irresistible to women that I have to do this other outrageous thing). It sets up unrealistic expectations among both men and women. It's not sexist because it uses a nude, it's sexist because of the attitude.

3. Unless you are (a) at an advertising conference talking about the use of gender normatives and selling with sexual promises or (b) at a fitness conference talking about effectively attracting the male 18-29 demographic…this ad and images from it would be completely inappropriate for use in presentation materials. Even if (a) and (b) are true…it would be worth considering whether the ad is one to use in your presentation.

The problem is one of time, place, and appropriateness of the material to the audience. Even in Denmark, I suspect this ad would be criticized if it were played in the early afternoon while children are watching after-school television.

Without trying to generalize too much, a lot of guys don't get it because they think that there's no such thing as too much attention from someone whose gender you're attracted to. They think that they'd love to get catcalls from random (usually female) strangers about how toned their abs are, etc. If that sort of thing happened in real life to guys on a regular basis…it would get old fast. (Which is sort of the backhanded point of the ad you pointed to. It just doesn't happen that way, and women by and large don't need to try to do anything to encounter creeps in the tech world or fandom or…)

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#237

Post by theorique »

rjknight wrote: post #196
theorique wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that a Black person is like a 5 year old and a White person is like a 30 year old? That's why people called grown Black men "boy" back in the day - it's egregiously racist and infantilizing to African Americans.

I addressed this in my second paragraph. There is a fundamental tension between two different views of fairness: One view says that fairness is about aggregate outcomes. We can observe that certain groups appear to be suffering from poor outcomes, and we regard this as unfair to members of those groups. We also recognise the historical factors involved in producing those outcomes. So, we might say "Women are under-re…

Thanks for a detailed response.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#238

Post by halostatue »

jimzvz wrote: post #218
klodolph wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how I agree with lots of what you say but the conclusion is wrong. Yes, there are lots of ways in which men are discriminated against. No, it is still not okay to show pictures of women in underwear at conferences. Yes, showing such pictures makes you a sexist pig. The reason I said "alternate reality" was because the quote about "six figures" was a complete fabrication, based on something a man actually said t…

My post was kind of off topic actually. The point was that it is frustrating that this kind of thing is seen as an issue but sexism against men is ignored or claimed not to exist and if you do bring it up, you are labeled as a misogynist. Regarding the actual issue, I agree with you that it is not okay to show women(or men) in underwear at a tech conference in most cases but I am not sure if it was sexist or not beca…

If that's how you take John Scalzi's essay…you have poorly read that essay.

Seriously.

The point of Scalzi's "Straight White Male…" essay is that all else being equal, being born a straight white male in western culture will result in large amounts of unseen privilege that can be leaned upon without even thinking about it.

It says nothing about relative ease of accomplishment after that. It says nothing about the small, petty, and (generally) inconsequential ways in which men are discriminated against (think auto insurance, as a first order item) in general life.

It also doesn't say a damned thing about whether you have the right to complain or not. It says far more about you thinking whether you've got standing to complain in a particular case, as the reality is that most men do not face gender discrimination on a regular basis—and when said discrimination is systemic (as it is in custody and alimony arrangements), then it must also be addressed—and it generally is being addressed (slowly, but surely).

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#239

Post by darkarmani »

oellegaard wrote: post #44

Showing a woman (or a man) in underwear is not sexism. It is btw equally funny no matter what gender it is. The logic applied in this article is equal to saying that it is racist to display a white man on your presentation, because then you are obviously promoting racism. Now, I completely agree that sexism is a bad thing - but come on, this is not really sexism.

> The logic applied in this article is equal to saying that it is racist to display a white man on your presentation

I think you've generalized the lesson incorrectly. There is a certain amount of context behind showing women as sex objects in your technical presentation that is lacking by showing a white man on your presentation.

Put it this way, is there anywhere you'd find the sexy women inappropriate? If there is, that's how some women feel about it in a business setting.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#240

Post by klodolph »

jimzvz wrote: post #218
klodolph wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how I agree with lots of what you say but the conclusion is wrong. Yes, there are lots of ways in which men are discriminated against. No, it is still not okay to show pictures of women in underwear at conferences. Yes, showing such pictures makes you a sexist pig. The reason I said "alternate reality" was because the quote about "six figures" was a complete fabrication, based on something a man actually said t…

My post was kind of off topic actually. The point was that it is frustrating that this kind of thing is seen as an issue but sexism against men is ignored or claimed not to exist and if you do bring it up, you are labeled as a misogynist. Regarding the actual issue, I agree with you that it is not okay to show women(or men) in underwear at a tech conference in most cases but I am not sure if it was sexist or not beca…

> My point proven by halostatue. Who is hinting that just because I am a man, I have no right to complain because everything comes so easy to me despite him having no knowledge of my particular circumstances.

This is such a bad interpretation of halostatue it is not even funny. Here's a quote from halostatue:

> It also doesn't say a damned thing about whether you have the right to complain or not

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