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NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

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Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#231

Post by wkat4242 »

foofoo12 wrote: post #91
Workaccount2 wrote: post #68

They need to just ban the ad model and make subscriptions (including free with no ads, if the provider wants it) mandatory. I don't think people understand how the economics of these apps (and websites) work, and it's been so long now that their incorrect assumptions (the feeds are free and the greedy providers shove ads in them) have turned into bedrock beliefs. You pay for instagram with your personal data, which i…

I'm totally convinced that even if you'd pay for Meta based social media account, they'd still harvest as much data on you as possible. The data is extraordinarily valuable and the morals of Meta is so utterly low.

This, exactly. They stop showing the highly visible annoyance. But the more insidious and lucrative datamining to sell ads everywhere else still goes on.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#232

Post by toofy »

/me claps.

in my not so humble and often overly verbose opinion, we desperately need to get back to a place where we have more control over what our own inputs.

a handful of people are now in control of the overwhelming majority of what we see. whether that’s the few websites most people visit or the wildly merging media ecosystem which is now also overwhelmingly controlled by a tiny few with even more mergers on the immediate horizon. to the corporate live event space. it’s insane that weve allowed such a tiny few to control nearly everything our people ingest.

anything which counters this stranglehold on our inputs is a good thing, no matter how small.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#233

Post by delbronski »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #144
delbronski wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah sure, because life in the USA is so much more awesome than in Europe. Naww, they can keep their relevancy in the world stage. We are good over here living in the "stone age".

The problem isn't that Europe is living in the stone age, clearly they aren't. The problem is that they are living in the modern age entirely on the back of foreign tech . Chinese hardware running American software. Industry running on American energy, and protection totally reliant on American defense (the US spent more money per capita in Ukraine than the EU did...). This doesn't even factor in generous welfare pro…

This is the story American billionaires tell poor Americans every day. Those lazy Europeans may have it good now, but just you wait another 10 years. That affordable healthcare? There won’t be a doctor left! All those parents having a year of paternity leave? Unsustainable!

You guys keep working 80% harder! We will keep 99% of the profits, but don’t worry it will eventually trickle down to you. Hey, maybe one day there will be enough cash left over to fix our healthcare and education systems. Those Europeans are asleep on the wheel. Always protesting and striking and vacationing. Those fools.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#234

Post by timeon »

lbhdc wrote: post #135
Workaccount2 wrote: post #68

They need to just ban the ad model and make subscriptions (including free with no ads, if the provider wants it) mandatory. I don't think people understand how the economics of these apps (and websites) work, and it's been so long now that their incorrect assumptions (the feeds are free and the greedy providers shove ads in them) have turned into bedrock beliefs. You pay for instagram with your personal data, which i…

https://about.fb.com/news/2024/11/facebook-and-instagram-to-... Don't they already offer this? Did it get canceled?

When Facebook offered me this option: "will you pay with your money or your data?" I was like: "do I really need this?" I just deleted the account since I was already not really using it. Everyone I know went with "yeah just track me" instead.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#235

Post by yason »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #68

They need to just ban the ad model and make subscriptions (including free with no ads, if the provider wants it) mandatory. I don't think people understand how the economics of these apps (and websites) work, and it's been so long now that their incorrect assumptions (the feeds are free and the greedy providers shove ads in them) have turned into bedrock beliefs. You pay for instagram with your personal data, which i…

Am I weird because I don't consider, in particular, the tracking nature of ads the biggest problem? Sure, I my browser doesn't share data between websites, I delete cookies automatically except whitelisted, and I don't give apps permissions for no good reason. But the problem with ads is their display, not the contents.

Early Google style text box ads were fine. Any ad put on the side of the page with no animated elements is probably fine. But in reality ads are intrusive and those block my mental process when I'm trying to read about of focus on something. Especially ads in videos would just make me focus really, really hard on blocking off the message until I can restore my mental stack and continue with the original video. (I can't watch youtube with ads, for that reason.) Anything that pops up, takes space, or requires me to find an X button to shut them off gets me to C-w the browser tab nearly without exception.

If the ads do behave I don't particularly mind. I even used to peruse ads in print magazines. In fact, untargetted ads are generally complete shit and if the "inter Net cloud thing" has even an inkling of what I might be interested at all, that's all the better I think. I don't ever click on ads though, so I'm probably not part of the prime target audience. But meaningful ads may make me add their products in the comparison set if I'm in the process of buying something similar.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#236

Post by maccard »

niek_pas wrote: post #92
maccard wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, for 5 million. It’s an intentional slap on the wrist because they don’t actually want to fine them, they just want them to change their behaviour. The general MO of European courts is to get people to comply, not to punish non compliance. There’s a subtle difference. If Meta change their tact in the next two weeks then they got what they wanted. If they don’t, fine increases and they’ll escalate responses.

Some useful context here is that the Netherlands is holding a general election on 29 October, which is why the deadline of two weeks was imposed. If Meta does not comply with the two weeks deadline and instead pays the (tiny) $5 million fine, that could have serious consequences for the democratic process in the Netherlands. Escalating after two weeks might be too little, too late.

That’s actually really interesting to know. I don’t think it would have serious implications if they chose to pay, but I do think it will be catastrophic if meta refuse to change and NL don’t escalate to the point of forcing compliance.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#237

Post by ecb_penguin »

alkonaut wrote: post #157
ecb_penguin wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That would be the sensible idea in a free market. Absolutely nothing stopping you from starting a social network > But that ship sailed LONG ago. I'm pretty sure there are hundreds? thousands? of startups ready to launch that all do some variant of FB. Why are you on YC if you think free market tech is dead? > But that doesn't mean the same rules and laws applies - or should apply - to one with 1B users as one with…

> Why are you on YC if you think free market tech is dead? I have been visiting this forum for 12 years. It took probably 5 years before I _heard_ about the "other" part of ycombinator - the startup thing. But I never really cared about that bit, it's just an online tech forum that happens to share domain with the startup incubator. > lol, what? We have different laws depending on how popular you are? Absolutely. I t…

> For example laws preventing monopolies (government approvals of mergers, for example).

Can you show me the federal code that includes number of customers?

Do you think monopoly rules are about size or behavior? Do you think a small mom and pop store couldn't act in monopolistic practices?

Do you think a small mom and pop store in a rural captured market couldn't price fix?

Hint: It's not size :)

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#238

Post by ecb_penguin »

array_key_first wrote: post #208
ecb_penguin wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That would be the sensible idea in a free market. Absolutely nothing stopping you from starting a social network > But that ship sailed LONG ago. I'm pretty sure there are hundreds? thousands? of startups ready to launch that all do some variant of FB. Why are you on YC if you think free market tech is dead? > But that doesn't mean the same rules and laws applies - or should apply - to one with 1B users as one with…

Facebook doesn't exist in a free market. It IS a market. And an unfree one ruled by a dictatorship that you can't vote on. That's what platforms are. They're markets. Its not like making a couch or something. That's why those other apps are literally worthless. It doesn't matter if the other apps are super amazing and they walk your dog and suck your dick and make you live forever. Literally does not matter. The app,…

> Facebook doesn't exist in a free market. It IS a market.

It is a market that exists in the free market.

> And an unfree one ruled by a dictatorship that you can't vote on.

Ok, so don't use that market. You're not entitled to Facebook, or being able to dictate anything.

> That's what platforms are. They're markets. Its not like making a couch or something.

Bud, I am begging you to close your Facebook account and see it is exactly like a couch you don't have to buy.

> It doesn't matter if the other apps are super amazing and they walk your dog and suck your dick and make you live forever. Literally does not matter.

You heard it here. YC is dead. Close up shop. All these investors just wasting their money because you can't vote Zuck out.

> The app, itself, does not matter. Which is why Facebook is allowed to be as shit as humanly possible.

This is just nonsense. You're trying to sound smart by taking an extreme position. Nuance is smart.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#239

Post by yepguy »

notatoad wrote: post #216
afavour wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone realizes that the ads they're seeing are targeted. To an extent. I think if everyday users were shown just how much personal data follows them around from site to site I think they’d be horrified. Enough to change their habits? Possibly not. But I don’t think people have full understanding.

this is just the tech-person habit of assuming that users are less informed than they are. go ask an "everyday user" how much they think instagram tracks them. i think you'll be surprised at what their assumptions are. most people i know (including my extremely non-tech-savvy parents) understand that "the algorithm" knows everything they do on the computer, and that's how both ads and content get targeted to them. th…

A surprising number of my friends even think their phone is constantly listening to their private conversations throughout the day in order to feed the algorithm. And yet they still keep their phone on them at all times, so they are seemingly okay with that much more draconian level of surveillance.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#240

Post by thfuran »

jfengel wrote: post #84
Workaccount2 wrote: post #68

They need to just ban the ad model and make subscriptions (including free with no ads, if the provider wants it) mandatory. I don't think people understand how the economics of these apps (and websites) work, and it's been so long now that their incorrect assumptions (the feeds are free and the greedy providers shove ads in them) have turned into bedrock beliefs. You pay for instagram with your personal data, which i…

I think people more or less understand that. Nobody likes ads. Everyone realizes that the ads they're seeing are targeted. But I think every web designer knows that putting even the slightest barrier between the user and the content drives away vast numbers of people. Making them enter a credit card -- even if you told them it would never be charged -- would send enormous numbers away. Many won't even create a free a…

> putting even the slightest barrier between the user and the content drives away vast numbers of people

That's precisely why it should be done statutorily. People are known to be irrational about free things, so it's a fundamentally anti-competitive business model that disadvantages companies that want to actually charge for their services.

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