Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#231

Post by panick21_ » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:12 PM UTC

ggernov wrote: post #203

The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. I took public transit all the time living in Melbourne since it was clean and silent nearly 98% of the time. Same in the Netherlands.

This is just false. In the US, when public transport is good by the same measures as other countries use, such as frequency, coverage and so on, Americans use public transport just fine.

The real reason, rather then looking at the most basic surface level is actually the horrible land use planning and the horrible transportation and city engineering. This includes things like zoning, building regulation, environmental regulation and many other things.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#232

Post by Gibbon1 » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:12 PM UTC

PlunderBunny wrote: post #143

ccppurcell wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the word subsidy to be a possible weasel word here. I don't know all the details but a railway system has certain costs (fuel, personnel, water, upkeep, the trains themselves and so on) and takes in a certain amount of revenue (fares and subsidies, also food etc). It might be true that the government increased the subsidy in order to support the cheaper tickets. But that's not the same as "requires". Perhaps I…

Don’t forget too that the cost of proving roads is also ‘subsidised’ in most countries, but we’re tend to be a bit blind to that. (This is not an argument against rail - I just find that subsidies are often mentioned with respect to rail but not with roads).

I remember Brad deLong did back of the napkin analysis to determine how much a bart fare should be including the cost of freeways. It was minus $2.00 or something.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#233

Post by weinzierl » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:12 PM UTC

black_puppydog wrote: post #49

jonp888 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The DB Navigator is so terrible that I try to book the German leg of my international travels from one of the other countries apps whenever possible. > For a counter example look at the French SNCF Connect app. It is not perfect but it is a pretty workable solution. I am extremely surprised that you would write this. The SNCF Connect app has a lot of problems. Just for starters, it can't cope with any journey with…

So much this. I often use DB navigator to plan trips within france. As soon as you're not going to or from Paris, the sncf offer and app are just terrible. Often, sncf-connect will refuse to offer me TER-only (regional train) trips, because one of the legs can also be done by TGV. Basically impossible to plan this kind of thing with the SNCF apps. But even the basic UX is terrible. The most blatant example of this is…

"But even the basic UX is terrible. The most blatant example of this is the choice to make the first text input on the search the target station."

This is just your preference and not terrible UX. In fact I find this the more intuitive way.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#234

Post by Qwertious » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:13 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #181

Larrikin wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we should work on making one vote to be equal in the nation.

This is a boring trope. Whether it’s a group of United States or a single State is a debate as old as the country. You’re going to need really compelling reasons for states to give up their representation and participate in the state vote required to amend the constitution to remove their rights.

It was a valid debate back when travelling to the capitol took months by horse. Nowadays everyone uses services from other states on a daily basis, and possibly work in another state (with WFH) on a daily basis. It's pretty darn clear that the USA simply could not exist as a bunch of separate states anymore.

And frankly, states are already giving up their representation in the current system. If you're not a swing state, you're irrelevant. If you live in a populated state, you have a second-class vote.

If the USA had a modern voting system and anyone proposed the current pile of junk, they would be laughed out of the room.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#235

Post by itqwertz » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:13 PM UTC

add-sub-mul-div wrote: post #215

ggernov wrote: post #203

The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. I took public transit all the time living in Melbourne since it was clean and silent nearly 98% of the time. Same in the Netherlands.

> The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. That's a lie told by people who sell fear as a product to people who always want new reasons to live in fear.

I spent years riding public transit in Portland, NYC, Seattle, SF, San Diego, Chicago, and other US cities. I can tell you anecdotally that public transit in the US is dangerous and meant for the poors who don’t have their shit together to level up and commute via car.

Ride 8AM and 5PM every workday for a year and tell me that it’s safe when you roll through the bad parts of Long Island/ brooklyn/Queens or the south side of Chicago. Tell me that you don’t have to take the inconvenient early train because of nTh handicap ramp pickup or last-mile cyclist that slows down your commute. Security on transit only cares about fare collection. The US is not like Europe where there is some latent pride in your ancestors accomplishments.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#236

Post by ckdarby » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:13 PM UTC

add-sub-mul-div wrote: post #215

ggernov wrote: post #203

The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. I took public transit all the time living in Melbourne since it was clean and silent nearly 98% of the time. Same in the Netherlands.

> The reason nobody uses public transit in America is it's always packed with transients or dangerous people. That's a lie told by people who sell fear as a product to people who always want new reasons to live in fear.

I used to live in Toronto in 2019 to 2020 and used the transit exclusively.

I return as a visitor of Toronto every quarter for work and there are many times where I Uber instead of TTC because of these comments. Even slightly busy at 4-5 PM there's always folks who have hit the gym and skipped showering and most days there's "something" happening on the TTC.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#237

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:14 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #220

pjmlp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between doing 1h with car, and 3h with public transport.

You mean the other way around.

It really depends on a lot of factors but I generally agree that many people vastly overestimate the time savings of taking a car.

And that's before we get into questions like "How many of your hours of paid work are required to make car payments, insurance payments, tag, title and maintenance?"

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#238

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:14 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #173

ccppurcell wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the word subsidy to be a possible weasel word here. I don't know all the details but a railway system has certain costs (fuel, personnel, water, upkeep, the trains themselves and so on) and takes in a certain amount of revenue (fares and subsidies, also food etc). It might be true that the government increased the subsidy in order to support the cheaper tickets. But that's not the same as "requires". Perhaps I…

It’s not a weasel word, it’s a word used to describe any program provided by the government that does not bring in enough revenue on its own to pay for itself. The same word applies to roads that do not pay for themselves through gas tax and/or tolls. If the government pays for something through a general fund from income/property/corporate taxes, it’s subsidized. It’s important to call these out whenever they are be…

> The same word applies to roads that do not pay for themselves through gas tax and/or tolls.

More or less all non-toll roads (and a few toll roads too). Which makes "applies" seems a bit pointless.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#239

Post by dyauspitr » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:14 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

Maybe but it’s also subsidizing travel for people, possibly increasing revenue for tourist spots and restaurants, it could keep people from buying a new ICE vehicle etc. It seems like one of those things that has a lot of benefits outside the immediate situation.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#240

Post by ClumsyPilot » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 11:15 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #173

ccppurcell wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the word subsidy to be a possible weasel word here. I don't know all the details but a railway system has certain costs (fuel, personnel, water, upkeep, the trains themselves and so on) and takes in a certain amount of revenue (fares and subsidies, also food etc). It might be true that the government increased the subsidy in order to support the cheaper tickets. But that's not the same as "requires". Perhaps I…

It’s not a weasel word, it’s a word used to describe any program provided by the government that does not bring in enough revenue on its own to pay for itself. The same word applies to roads that do not pay for themselves through gas tax and/or tolls. If the government pays for something through a general fund from income/property/corporate taxes, it’s subsidized. It’s important to call these out whenever they are be…

> the program is not sustainable on its own

So arrest, investigation prosecution and imprisonment of anyone who steals from Amazon is a massive subsidy, since Amazon pays no tax.